India-U.S. Bilateral: Boeing To Shift F/A-18 Assembly Line If India Buys 200 Jets

[kaykay]

US is selling F-35 to many countries, including many much richer countries than India. I am amazed at some Indian folks' enthusiasms on the recent defense cooperation between US and India. No country can buy her way to be great. Buying, even relying on some imports that are way beyond your own manufacturing capability, is like digging a big hole to jump in. You would pray that exporter still covers you when you are climbing your way out of that hole.

Well my reply was only because you said 'It stay a dream' unless India is an ally like Israel which I proved its not.
Anyway on buying vs developing/manufacturing stuff, I completely agree with you but I for one won't rely too much on HAL atleast till I see some positive development with our own fifth generation aircraft AMCA. Till then all we can do is to rely on PAK-FA( a joint venture) for IAF and F-35s for navy.

PS: As the saying goes 'hope for best but prepare for worst' similarly Indian govt is gonna support AMCA fully but at the same time it can't just sit hoping it would come with 100% success.

 

[Perpendicular]

Delink HAL out from Tejas MK-2 and AMCA and outsource the project to private company

I would say scrap AMCA on the whole as there is no such thing as "medium" predefined in a project of this class.
Put a RFI for a 5th gen jet in numbers required for both Airforce and Naval versions with Make in India condition. Let them compete, collaborate for it.

 

[nang2]

Well my reply was only because you said 'It stay a dream' unless India is an ally like Israel which I proved its not.
Anyway on buying vs developing/manufacturing stuff, I completely agree with you but I for one won't rely too much on HAL atleast till I see some positive development with our own fifth generation aircraft AMCA. Till then all we can do is to rely on PAK-FA( a joint venture) for IAF and F-35s for navy.

If my memory serves me right, US is offering a lot of goodies on the table to India. But India needs to sign some agreement that essentially makes her an American ally to get those goodies. It is important to read the fine print before accepting a deal.

 

[sharma1111]

I would say scrap AMCA on the whole as there is no such thing as "medium" predefined in a project of this class.
Put a RFI for a 5th gen jet in numbers required for both Airforce and Naval versions with Make in India condition. Let them compete, collaborate for it.

Make in India for 5th Gen western product is hogwash. No western country is ready to share basic primitive tech. At max, we can get some TOT for F-16 and F-18.

Russia is safest bet for 5 gen tech transfer
PAK/FA will be assembled in India. Why not negotiate some more TOT with Russia and involve Indian private sector companies in sub-system manufacturing. India should link 50% investment cost of project to atleast 33% of tech transfer.

AMCA is all about borrowing these tech, doing some local R&D and producing our desi 4.5-5 Gen bird in another 15yrs

Well we recently got P-8s, C-17s, Super Hercules, ordered Chinooks and Apaches etc but I don't remember any such agreement. And of you are talking about CISMOA then India won't sign it and it was the reason it went ahead with Indigenous communication stuffs in P-8Is.

Americans may agree to sell F-18 without Cismoa. Who is going to buy F-18 after 2020.
So its americans who need Indian market if we offer to buy 200 in another 15 yrs.

 

[kaykay]

If my memory serves me right, US is offering a lot of goodies on the table to India. But India needs to sign some agreement that essentially makes her an American ally to get those goodies. It is important to read the fine print before accepting a deal.

Well we recently got P-8s, C-17s, Super Hercules, ordered Chinooks and Apaches etc but I don't remember any such agreement. And of you are talking about CISMOA then India won't sign it and it was the reason it went ahead with Indigenous communication stuffs in P-8Is.

 

[nang2]

Well we recently got P-8s, C-17s, Super Hercules, ordered Chinooks and Apaches etc but I don't remember any such agreement. And of you are talking about CISMOA then India won't sign it and it was the reason it went ahead with Indigenous communication stuffs in P-8Is.

None of these is considered to be leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world. For F-35 and EMAL, even Americans don't have them widely used.

 

[dadeechi]

India adopted the worst type of communist culture. We have 2 communist parties who control all labor unions. These communist parties shut down 80% of industries in last 70yrs.
If they wre in china, they would have been banned for economic terrorism.


Four traits of Indian public sector
1. Inaccountability
2. These people cant be fired,suspended,demoted

3. 90% of staff is unproductive,lousy.

4. HAL outsources 90% job to private companies from fuselage manufacturing to sub-assembly.

What HAL employees do apart from drinking tea 5 times a day??
=>They barely work 5 hours a day.
Some of them integrate those large assemblies, fit weapons and do final testing.
In final assembly, they introduce defects and screw the product.

HAL has 35000+ employees but most staff dont know how to weld, tighen screws. Engineering is outside their capability. R&D is beyond their reach.

The place I worked, the productive hours were 3 hours tops. You would find people playing cards or sleeping after lunch.

The only time you could find the full strength is at 8:00 AM and Noon for breakfast and lunch at the canteen.

The food is not free. You have to pay 5 paise for breakfast and 10 paise for lunch. Since the price was nominal, the canteen management decided to do away with the hassle of collecting cash and paying back the change by making it free. What a bad decision that was. The next day we had huge darnas by the unions for insulting them by offering free food and treating them as beggars. Finally a compromise was reached and they had installed a cash deposit box where people can optionally drop cash for the food.

 

[kaykay]

None of these is considered to be leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world. For F-35 and EMAL, even Americans don't have them widely used.

Well P-8s, Apaches, Chinooks are best stuffs in their categories for sure. And about F-35s and EMALS, they are a product of future and intended to replace oldies so it will take time before they are widely used.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Regardless, Indian certainly enjoy having many choices to choose from. Chinese have so few choices.

Doesnt matter. China is producing fighters anyway. However it will take some time for its technology to mature. Its a good step anyway. J20 is no small thing either.

 

[Hulk]

what is special about 100 percent manufacturing, unless we scrap the rafale deal. India neither needs nor can afford 200 crafts

Indian defence manufacturing is govt owned and they do not have the culture of excellence. Even our armed forces do not trust them because they overpromise and underdeliver. We cant change their culture, as these orgs are too big.
We need private Indian companies to compete inside India. There is no other way.

We are moving away from government owned.

 

[nang2]

We are moving away from government owned.

Privatization will only work well when there is competition. Better creating competition before privatizing.

 

[Hulk]

Privatization will only work well when there is competition. Better creating competition before privatizing.

Confused, how do you create competition without privatization?

 

[nang2]

Confused, how do you create competition without privatization?

See how two state-owned Chinese aircraft manufacturers compete with each other.

 

[egodoc222]

I would love to see gripen in IAF!!!
With complete production line transfered to India!!

 

[Perpendicular]

No western country is ready to share basic primitive tech.

Include Russia in that list also. The level of involvement of Indian PSU's in PAKFA tells a lot.

PAK/FA will be assembled in India. Why not negotiate some more TOT with Russia and involve Indian private sector companies in sub-system manufacturing.

What are you going to do with TOT when the institutions we've got are not capable of absorbing it. Rafale TOT saga is still fresh. Dassault clearly told us that PSU's are in no position to materialize any TOT provided to them.

involve Indian private sector companies in sub-system manufacturing. I

How will govt pick a particular private company for a particular subsystem ? Keeping in mind the speed with which contracts are signed by govt.

Bottom line is there is no thing as TOT at all. You have to develop in home, whatever you want, whichever way you can. If that involves Indian private companies joining any western in India to make it.

Let the best company win and let the best vehicle win, 4.5 or 5 th gen whatever comes is that's what we are capable of.