India may reconsider $20 billion French Rafale jet deal in favor of Russia

[The Great One]

"Once the RFP aspects are done, only then can we sit down for price negotiations," the source added.

Interesting............................

 

[HRK]

Hi,

If this deal falls thru----then there is a hint that india was never serious in buying this aircraft---it just wanted to sabotage Pakistan's relationship with france---picked up this aircraft and kept france on a hummer---.

Chances of Rafale deal is not dead yet, Rafale was never & even today is not an immediate & necessary defence requirement of India but a strategic requirement; if India wants to play a bigger strategic role outside the South Asian region.

I may be wrong but I think eventually India will go for 'NATO compatible sys' either under this deal or under any other arrangements.

 

[MilSpec]

The price has escalated not because of the time factor but rather that Dassault is offering the newer Rafale F3 version......which means more capability....since even if the deal is signed it wont be until 3 years that first squadron strength jets are delivered.

French should have gone with JF-17 avionics.....would've made 1-2 billion USD on a whim.

I am not sure if India would cancel the deal, maybe force Dassault to offer the old version with old price or maybe cut the order from 126 to 63?

@sandy_3126 what do you say? It is all topi drama or is India seriously considering slashing the deal?

Strong arm tactics, very common in capital equipment procurement.

 

[CONNAN]

what do you guys think of a single engine flanker Concept like the one below

 

[CONNAN]

India’s rejection of Rafale in favor of Su-30 might be justified - experts
January 13, 2015 RIA Novosti
Experts believe that India’s rejection of the French Rafale fighter in favor of the Russian Su-30MKI is advantageous for India in every way.

It is possible that India’s acquisition of the Su-30MKI fighter plane instead of the French Rafale is advantageous to the country’s air force in terms of cost, tactical and technical characteristics of the plane and a series of other reasons, says the official representative of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT).

Previously The New Economic Times announced that the Ministry of Defense might refuse to purchase the French Rafale fighter and buy the Russian Su-30MKI instead.

"India’s rejection of the French Rafale fighter in favor of the Russian Su-30MKI is advantageous for India in every way: according to its tactical and technical specifications the Russian plane is significantly superior to the French equivalent. Furthermore, for India’s air force the pricing is extremely important, and the increase of the initial price to almost double what was in the contract just doesn’t reflect the existing economic reality ", said a CAWAT representative.

He highlighted that India already had the conditions necessary for servicing the Su-30MKI and the purchase of the new batch of Russian fighters would only strengthen Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation: "The logistical supply chain for maintaining the Su-30MKI has already been established for the aircraft previously supplied by Russia and assembled in India. Furthermore, this aircraft is a 4++ generation fighter — it will ensure that the Indian air force is ready to accept the fifth generation fighters (FGFA)".

According to the CAWAT representative, another reason for India’s rejection of the Rafale might be the French freeze on the delivery of the Mistral helicopter carrier to Russia.

"The delay and possible refusal of France to deliver the Mistral to Russia creates the doubt that this country is a reliable partner for military and technical cooperation. It cannot be excluded that Paris for one political reason or another will not halt the execution of the contract on the Rafale delivery. Therefore the possible change of focus by India to the Su-30MKI will be a better choice for the country’s air force,” he highlighted.

First published in Russian by RIA Novosti.

India’s rejection of Rafale in favor of Su-30 might be justified - experts | Russia & India Report

 

[sancho]

There is no other option other than MKIs. The defence minsters said recently that there's no going back to the other contenders. It's either Rafale or upgraded MKIs.

That's not correct, he even refused to answer on the question if there are only the 2 choices and made clear that he can't talk with anybody other than the L1 at the moment and that the MKI is "always" an option, which is logical, since we already produce it in India. The only alternative to Rafale however is the EF, but negotiations with them, or a complete re-tendering (depending on what MoD wants), can only happen if the L1 fails to comply to the requirements!

The rafale deal at this time may not be the best deal for IAF---. China has taken a surprising leap in aircraft technology and what maybe available to PAF in the next 3 to 5 years maybe more concerning to IAF than what Rafale brings to the table.

There is nothing that China has at the moment, that could compare to Rafale or EF and none of the stealth fighters will be available or affordable for PAF in the next 3-5 years, so that certainly is not an issue for IAF. They are more concerned about their modernisation, which is partially dependent on the MMRCA tender and a final selection. With the ToT offer compliant to our demands, the cost not being a major issue at this point, it is simply Dassault that keeps delaying and risking the deal since 2013 now. If they wanted, the deal could had been fixed under the UPA government, but any further delay towards the election and any new issue raised by Dassault, just made it more difficult. So your theory about India trying to block PAF is baseless, since the problem for the dealays are on the French side.

what do you guys think of a single engine flanker Concept like the one below

A single engine medium class fighter would had been the best choice, with the MKI on the upper side and the aim to have reasonable operational costs. However, a single engined MKI doesn't add anything in terms of capability or industrial advantages, so that concept is not what the MMRCA tender was about.

 

[nair]

That's not correct, he even refused to answer on the question if there are only the 2 choices and made clear that he can't talk with anybody other than the L1 at the moment and that the MKI is "always" an option, which is logical, since we already produce it in India. The only alternative to Rafale however is the EF, but negotiations with them, or a complete re-tendering (depending on what MoD wants), can only happen if the L1 fails to comply to the requirements!

It wil take another 8 years to complete the process, and by the time we actually start getting inducting them, we already lost 10 years in this.....

 

[sancho]

It wil take another 8 years to complete the process, and by the time we actually start getting inducting them, we already lost 10 years in this.....

That only depends on the contract, in fact the EF is currently the fastest choice for us to get fighters, not even Sukhoi or Mig and by far not Dassault have similar high production rates and we easily could get EF T3As in government to government deals, directly from the 4 partner countries (which would be happy to divert them currently). The only issue is that we basically start from scratch again wrt the licence production in India, the EF consortium teaming up with Indian partners, ToT compliance..., but even that might be faster than what we have seen from Dassault, since bigger companies are involved in the EF consortium with good ties to Indian partners (BAE, RR, Airbus and HAL, Electronica and BEL, Airbus, Finmeccanica and Tata, Airbus and L&T...).
It's a pain in the a... of course and that's why MoD would prefer to fix the Rafale deal at this advanced stage, but there is no reason for them to move away from the requirements and bow down to Dassaults (maybe Reliance's) demands. In fact, after all these years and to retain international reputation, India has to fix the MMRCA deal, if not with Dassault then with the EF consortium. Cancelling the deal and sticking to Russian fighters instead, is the worst case scenario, since it doesn't add any advantage and would make a decade of evaluations to a big waste. It only serves as a back up option to keep IAF fleet numbers, but that's it.

 

[Ghostwhowalks]

Cancelling the deal and sticking to Russian fighters instead, is the worst case scenario, since it doesn't add any advantage and would make a decade of evaluations to a big waste. It only serves as a back up option to keep IAF fleet numbers, but that's it.

I suggest you speak to some serving IAF pilots before making these loose statements. Granted the Rafale EW suite is more advanced than anything India has at present, but on quite a few parameters, like close in dogfight, maneuverability, loiter ability, radar etc, the SU30 MKI is leagues ahead of the Rafale. Talk to IAF pilots who have trained against the RSAF F16s in the SU30s and then you will know how potent the SU 30 really is in the hands of IAF pilots who on average clock over 200 hours per year on the bird.

 

[Frogman]

i believe Dassault doenst have other customers , i believe they will be pretty stupid if they let this go.

Egypt: Rafale FREMM Deal Imminent?

Qatar and the UAE are reportedly in negotiations as well.

 

[greatone]

Egypt: Rafale FREMM Deal Imminent?

Qatar and the UAE are reportedly in negotiations as well.

Goodluck to Egypt, Qatar and UAE.

Dassault will take back each and every Petrodollar

 

[sancho]

I suggest you speak to some serving IAF pilots before making these loose statements.

Read the quote that I was refering too once again, because issue was, if a single engined varient of the MKI would be a choice, but that makes no sense when you have the MKI with all advantages but better performance. Besides, the F16 is not really a yardstick for the MKI nor for the Rafale, while the Rafale F3+ is superior to the current MKI in more than just the EW field. After the coming upgrade that will be corrected to some extend again.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That only depends on the contract, in fact the EF is currently the fastest choice for us to get fighters, not even Sukhoi or Mig and by far not Dassault have similar high production rates and we easily could get EF T3As in government to government deals, directly from the 4 partner countries (which would be happy to divert them currently). The only issue is that we basically start from scratch again wrt the licence production in India, the EF consortium teaming up with Indian partners, ToT compliance..., but even that might be faster than what we have seen from Dassault, since bigger companies are involved in the EF consortium with good ties to Indian partners (BAE, RR, Airbus and HAL, Electronica and BEL, Airbus, Finmeccanica and Tata, Airbus and L&T...).
.

I have never quite understood WHY do you CONSISTENTLY think
that negotiations with Eurofighter would be a walk in the park
and that Eurofighter would give us any thing that we ask for

For all your knowledge ; you do come across as a silly person
when you say this again and again

Cancelling the deal and sticking to Russian fighters instead, is the worst case scenario, since it doesn't add any advantage and would make a decade of evaluations to a big waste. It only serves as a back up option to keep IAF fleet numbers, but that's it.

We do need numbers to save our fleet strength and operational preparedness
Su 30 mki is the only option we have ; in case Rafale talks fail
and which after upgradation will become more potent and useful

 

[sancho]

I have never quite understood WHY do you CONSISTENTLY think
that negotiations with Eurofighter would be a walk in the park
and that Eurofighter would give us any thing that we ask for

Maybe because you don't read properly:

The only issue is that we basically start from scratch again wrt the licence production in India, the EF consortium teaming up with Indian partners, ToT compliance..., but even that might be faster than what we have seen from Dassault, since bigger companies are involved in the EF consortium with good ties to Indian partners (BAE, RR, Airbus and HAL, Electronica and BEL, Airbus, Finmeccanica and Tata, Airbus and L&T...).

The EF consortium companies are far more involved with Indian industry today, than Dassault is. We have successful licence productions running with them, especially with HAL. Their bid was found to be complying to our requirements on techs, capabilities of the fighters as well as the ToT/offset proposal, that's why it was shortlisted.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Maybe because you don't read properly:



The EF consortium companies are far more involved with Indian industry today, than Dassault is. We have successful licence productions running with them, especially with HAL. Their bid was found to be complying to our requirements on techs, capabilities of the fighters as well as the ToT/offset proposal, that's why it was shortlisted.

Chalk and cheese really

What is the total value of all these current deals

Then you compare it to MMRCA cost

The only reason we got into the whole MMRCA story was
because we knew that were going to spend 20 BILLION USD

AND it was decided to get the BEST of Western technology
in return for this Amount of money (WITHOUT the threat of US Sanctions )

Hence we are haggling for TOT ; offsets and licenced production

MMRCA was always about technological gains to the country
and NOT just capability for the IAF

IF and When we sit down to negotiate with Eurofighter
we shall face the same obstacles again

In fact even worse given that EF consortium is NOT that desperate
as Dassault for making a sale

And what is the guarentee that 3 more years of negotiations will
bear any fruit