India-China ties progressed but relations remain complex: Envoy

[ThaniOruvan]

Beijing: Ties between India and China are set for a "very active" year with likely visits of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping to each other's country even as the relationship remains complex due to the unresolved boundary dispute, the Indian envoy has said.

India's outgoing envoy Ashok K Kantha, who will be retiring on January 6, said 2016 will be marked by high level visits as Modi is expected to visit China to take part in G-20 summit to be held in east China's Hangzhou city while Xi may visit India to participate in the BRICS summit. "2016 will be a very active year with two big visits at the highest level.

China is hosting G20 summit at Hangzhou and India will host the BRICS leaders' meeting. Top leaders are expected to attend the summits," Kantha, who will be succeeded by Indian Ambassador to Germany Vijay Keshav Gokhale, told the Indian media.

The expected high-level trips come in the backdrop of highly successful visits of Xi to India in 2014 and Modi to Beijing in 2015, reflecting the buoyant state of ties which have seen all round development of cooperation in the last few years including in security and defence areas besides trade and investment, Kantha said.

2015 was also marked by high levels visits. Besides Modi, Home Minister Rajnath Singh and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj visited China while Finance Minister Arun Jaitley visited Hong Kong. Also, Politburo-level officials of the ruling Communist Party of China visited India, Kantha said. This year's interactions will begin with the visit National Security Advisor Ajit Doval who is expected to be in Beijing on a two-day visit starting on January 5.

He is due to meet his counterpart and China's top diplomat Yang Jiechi and Premier Li Keqiang. Doval's visit is part of the "architecture for strategic communication" set up by both countries, Kantha said. He also clarified that Doval's visit is not to take part in Special Representative talks on the border issue. "He is coming for strategic consultations," Kantha said declining to provide details.

Yang and Doval are designated Special Representatives for border talks. So far the two sides have held 18 rounds of border talks. But despite the all round progress, it still remains an uneasy relationship due to the unresolved boundary issue, Kantha said. "It is a complex relationship. There are issues like the boundary question," he said without elaborating.

Link : India-China ties progressed but relations remain complex: Envoy - IBNLive

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Though there are heads of states visits from both sides did it yield meaningful results for either China or India ?
Chinese army breached Indian soil when their President Mr. Xi Jinping was having a chit-chat with Mr. Modi.
I see no improvement in relations between the nations yet.
Friends,
Please enlighten me with realistic facts and points.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Trust is the point of contention here.. For both sides..
China does not trust India bcz of our relative positioning in issues like SCS and growing bonhomie with USA and Japan. The border dispute is just a trigger..
The real dispute seems to be the fact that China is directly challenging USA and the unipolar world. And USA propping India and Japan to counter China. That seems to be the chief cause of issue here.

Economy and engines of growth are just jargons used here for shadow boxing by other countries.

For Indian side, the point of contention remains the past history of war, regular border incursions, the Arunachal Pradesh issue and most severely the constant rallying and support to another neighbor with whom India is still having disputes. (We just started talks again hopefully something good happens)

The engagement and confidence building mechanisms will show results but its a very slow process.
IF we can get meaningful peace time in border issues, via talks we can definitely solve many other issues.

@wanglaokan pls do comment on this bro
Also, Can you pls tag some other fellow members from China who can give a good opinion for a reasonable discussion on this.

 

[ThaniOruvan]

Trust is the point of contention here.. For both sides..
China does not trust India bcz of our relative positioning in issues like SCS and growing bonhomie with USA and Japan. The border dispute is just a trigger..
The real dispute seems to be the fact that China is directly challenging USA and the unipolar world. And USA propping India and Japan to counter China. That seems to be the chief cause of issue here.

Economy and engines of growth are just jargons used here for shadow boxing by other countries.

For Indian side, the point of contention remains the past history of war, regular border incursions, the Arunachal Pradesh issue and most severely the constant rallying and support to another neighbor with whom India is still having disputes. (We just started talks again hopefully something good happens)

The engagement and confidence building mechanisms will show results but its a very slow process.
IF we can get meaningful peace time in border issues, via talks we can definitely solve many other issues.

@wanglaokan pls do comment on this bro
Also, Can you pls tag some other fellow members from China who can give a good opinion for a reasonable discussion on this.

1. India did not enter into the SCS fiasco automatically. China used Pakistan as a lynch pin on India for which India retaliated. Still India does not have a strong presence in SCS. For this minor move china is crying and whining. Think how it would have caused a great concern for India when there is a Chinese funded project going on in Pakistan Occupies Kashmir which legally belongs to her ?

2. India and Japan were friends even before the Sino-Indian war. Who is to be blamed for that ?
Isn't it funny to lock horns with Japan and crying at India to maintain its distance with Japan ?

3. Why does the USA or any other power player going to come to India or Japan if china had better relations with us ? Who do we blame for that ?

4. The relations between India and china are much greater than that small piece of land. Why both of them ruin it unnecessarily ?

5. It is a waste of time and effort to engage with China as far as they are going to play their dirty game.

6. CBMs with the Chinese will not work. How many times can India afford to convince China that it is not against it ?

7. If India sides with the USA and Japan against China, do the Chinese have the right to question it ? If they say yes, what did they do to improve ties with India ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

1. India did not enter into the SCS fiasco automatically. China used Pakistan as a lynch pin on India for which India retaliated. Still India does not have a strong presence in SCS. For this minor move china is crying and whining. Think how it would have caused a great concern for India when there is a Chinese funded project going on in Pakistan Occupies Kashmir which legally belongs to her ?

the CPEC project in disputed land is a issue no doubt but that issue has been raised by GOI with Chinese government. Their stand and our stand on this subject is different. We claim such a project legalizes the portion forcefully occupied. Their say is its economical project and no where endorses or legalizes the portion to its occupants.
Two views dont meet true but that does not stop from making each other see the points. CPEC is just one part of a much grander plan and the silk road project. The project itself is incomplete with full fledged cooperation and endorsement by India.

See here: India important cooperative partner in Silk Road project: China - The Economic Times

An important excerpt:
In a fresh bid to rope in India into its multi-billion dollar Silk Road project, China today said it regarded India as an important cooperative partner in the mega project and would like to listen its opinion and suggestions to address the concerns.

Asked about unanimous opinion expressed by top Indian ruling and opposition political parties on the country's concerns and reservations over the "One Belt, One Road" initiative, which included the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor that passes through Azad Kashmir, Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying said the projects were aimed at furthering regional economic cooperation.

"The Chinese side takes India as an important cooperative partner in the building of the 'One Belt, One Road' projects and would like to listen to India's opinions and suggestions on the Belt and Road and explore practical cooperation," Hua told PTI in response to India's concerns over the projects.

Thus you see small engagements over time and leaders visiting has helped at least some movement for a more cooperative role on this issue.

2. India and Japan were friends even before the Sino-Indian war. Who is to be blamed for that ?
Isn't it funny to lock horns with Japan and crying at India to maintain its distance with Japan ?

China and Japan has historical issues.. a topic too big for this thread.. but you can read few here
China-Japan Relations | Lowy Institute (very short points)
A bit old : http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/497f8d14-ec43-11e1-a91c-00144feab49a.html
google search will yield more and better results

Thus their issues of contention are much older than India Japanese relationship. On top Japan is in USA camp and USA has been propping India as a counter against China overtly and covertly.

Our relationship with Japan howsoever peaceful it might be will cause some apprehensions for China as our own disputes and point of contentions are not resolved yet. Their reactions are more for this aspect.. nothing else.

3. Why does the USA or any other power player going to come to India or Japan if china had better relations with us ? Who do we blame for that ?

China has provided the most favourable environment for USA and China economic relationship.. a big market, low cost of production and a good margin.. Yet China also has tried to raise herself as a country to take on USA and its views which they feel are not legitimate. Now who is correct how much is out of contention for me. But their continuous trade and economic relation at one side and continuous geo political bouts are two different sides of the same coin.

It is true atm India is just a small player in the geo political arena but a similar lucrative market, geographically next door to China and a thriving economy led middle class provides a opportunity to USA and other countries.

Thus, propping India against China works for them as this causes both the countries to be suspicious of each other and will never let us unite and share the economic prosperity. a understanding between india and china potentially will end the superpower status of USA inspite of she being a far advanced economy.. in just a decade her entire economy and its demand will crumble .. thats not a happy sight is it..

4. The relations between India and china are much greater than that small piece of land. Why both of them ruin it unnecessarily ?

a cumulative of reasons out of which few are mentioned above.. the deep rooted suspicion and distrust for having another country like USA, Japan and Pakistan mixed between India and China relationship made a mockery of a potentially very beneficial relationship
Perhaps now we can engage each other devoid of these Extras and work out something good.

5. It is a waste of time and effort to engage with China as far as they are going to play their dirty game.

Umm not sure about this part... Strategies are never dirty.. some are effective some are not.. dirty is by our definition of understanding and comprehension..

6. CBMs with the Chinese will not work. How many times can India afford to convince China that it is not against it ?

trust takes time bro.. give some more time.. we will see each others views soon and work out a good understanding

7. If India sides with the USA and Japan against China, do the Chinese have the right to question it ? If they say yes, what did they do to improve ties with India ?

you see the engagement more nowadays.. You see more visits.. you see more peace talks.. then are both nations especially china not making an effort to improve relations..

Let us not get swayed by our emotions here.. both India and China are making efforts... We may not see immediate results but rest assured something good will happen soon via these engagements.

 

[帅的一匹]

The friendship goes like 'We are not enemy and we are not friend either'. China and India has profound mistrust due to the 1962 conflicts, the relationship won't improve that much so as to enhance mutual political trust until Following topics addressed: 1. The land dispute 2. Dalai Lama problem 3.the truth in 1962 . Before 1962, China and India were good buddies, now China and Pakistan are brother especially after 1962 Sino India war. Nehru is always there to be blamed for his Adventure and betray.

 

[ThaniOruvan]

The friendship goes like 'We are not enemy and we are not friend either'. China and India has profound mistrust due to the 1962 conflicts, the relationship won't improve that much so as to enhance mutual political trust until Following topics addressed: 1. The land dispute 2. Dalai Lama problem 3.the truth in 1962 . Before 1962, China and India were good buddies, now China and Pakistan are brother especially after 1962 Sino India war. Nehru is always there to be blamed for his Adventure and betray.

Is Dalai Lama still a problem ? I am sure India's stand is pretty straightforward in that matter.
Of course 1962 is a bitter experience. But that should not mar the present state of affairs, be it offensive or friendly.

the CPEC project in disputed land is a issue no doubt but that issue has been raised by GOI with Chinese government. Their stand and our stand on this subject is different. We claim such a project legalizes the portion forcefully occupied. Their say is its economical project and no where endorses or legalizes the portion to its occupants.
Two views dont meet true but that does not stop from making each other see the points. CPEC is just one part of a much grander plan and the silk road project. The project itself is incomplete with full fledged cooperation and endorsement by India.

See here: India important cooperative partner in Silk Road project: China - The Economic Times

An important excerpt:
In a fresh bid to rope in India into its multi-billion dollar Silk Road project, China today said it regarded India as an important cooperative partner in the mega project and would like to listen its opinion and suggestions to address the concerns.

Asked about unanimous opinion expressed by top Indian ruling and opposition political parties on the country's concerns and reservations over the "One Belt, One Road" initiative, which included the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor that passes through Azad Kashmir, Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying said the projects were aimed at furthering regional economic cooperation.

"The Chinese side takes India as an important cooperative partner in the building of the 'One Belt, One Road' projects and would like to listen to India's opinions and suggestions on the Belt and Road and explore practical cooperation," Hua told PTI in response to India's concerns over the projects.

Thus you see small engagements over time and leaders visiting has helped at least some movement for a more cooperative role on this issue.



China and Japan has historical issues.. a topic too big for this thread.. but you can read few here
China-Japan Relations | Lowy Institute (very short points)
A bit old : http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/497f8d14-ec43-11e1-a91c-00144feab49a.html
google search will yield more and better results

Thus their issues of contention are much older than India Japanese relationship. On top Japan is in USA camp and USA has been propping India as a counter against China overtly and covertly.

Our relationship with Japan howsoever peaceful it might be will cause some apprehensions for China as our own disputes and point of contentions are not resolved yet. Their reactions are more for this aspect.. nothing else.




China has provided the most favourable environment for USA and China economic relationship.. a big market, low cost of production and a good margin.. Yet China also has tried to raise herself as a country to take on USA and its views which they feel are not legitimate. Now who is correct how much is out of contention for me. But their continuous trade and economic relation at one side and continuous geo political bouts are two different sides of the same coin.

It is true atm India is just a small player in the geo political arena but a similar lucrative market, geographically next door to China and a thriving economy led middle class provides a opportunity to USA and other countries.

Thus, propping India against China works for them as this causes both the countries to be suspicious of each other and will never let us unite and share the economic prosperity. a understanding between india and china potentially will end the superpower status of USA inspite of she being a far advanced economy.. in just a decade her entire economy and its demand will crumble .. thats not a happy sight is it..



a cumulative of reasons out of which few are mentioned above.. the deep rooted suspicion and distrust for having another country like USA, Japan and Pakistan mixed between India and China relationship made a mockery of a potentially very beneficial relationship
Perhaps now we can engage each other devoid of these Extras and work out something good.



Umm not sure about this part... Strategies are never dirty.. some are effective some are not.. dirty is by our definition of understanding and comprehension..


trust takes time bro.. give some more time.. we will see each others views soon and work out a good understanding


you see the engagement more nowadays.. You see more visits.. you see more peace talks.. then are both nations especially china not making an effort to improve relations..

Let us not get swayed by our emotions here.. both India and China are making efforts... We may not see immediate results but rest assured something good will happen soon via these engagements.

Though we go round and round on this optimism the reality is China and India suspect each other.
They are at logger heads. Lets see the future course of action by both parties.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Though we go round and round on this optimism the reality is China and India suspect each other.
They are at logger heads. Lets see the future course of action by both parties.

Yes Sir, I fully agree with that.. We do suspect each other and are at logger heads..
Hope something good happens in near future..

 

[desimorty]

The friendship goes like 'We are not enemy and we are not friend either'. China and India has profound mistrust due to the 1962 conflicts, the relationship won't improve that much so as to enhance mutual political trust until Following topics addressed: 1. The land dispute 2. Dalai Lama problem 3.the truth in 1962 . Before 1962, China and India were good buddies, now China and Pakistan are brother especially after 1962 Sino India war. Nehru is always there to be blamed for his Adventure and betray.

Source: India-China ties progressed but relations remain complex: Envoy

Land dispute is non issue. The rocks are worthless and both know it. Just have domestic audience/nationalist issue. China is the bigger, it will have to give more other wise risk being tagged a Imperial.
2. Dalai Lama isn't a problem anymore. Hes under control. CCP is aware of this.
Truth of 1962. What happened? Well you have 1962 missile standoff. Mao attacked india in retaliation for USSR.
Kennedy got assassinated, and Mao called Khrushchev a "traitor".
Who's to blame for the cold war?????????????????
non-aligned India or Mao China?
It was intention. The USSR under stalin was a threat but Khrushchev and alike didn't want war.
China and India naturally have good relations exp, now that the cold war is over and a NWO begins and unfolds.
The CCP just isn't transparent.
That being said. Competitors and rivals, but brothers on a super continent known as Asia. I hope Modi and Xi work together on energy/water damns in Tibet. Such projects would benefit both whom are down stream especially Deccan Plateau.

 

[Genesis]

Trust is the point of contention here.. For both sides..
China does not trust India bcz of our relative positioning in issues like SCS and growing bonhomie with USA and Japan. The border dispute is just a trigger..
The real dispute seems to be the fact that China is directly challenging USA and the unipolar world. And USA propping India and Japan to counter China. That seems to be the chief cause of issue here.

Economy and engines of growth are just jargons used here for shadow boxing by other countries.

For Indian side, the point of contention remains the past history of war, regular border incursions, the Arunachal Pradesh issue and most severely the constant rallying and support to another neighbor with whom India is still having disputes. (We just started talks again hopefully something good happens)

The engagement and confidence building mechanisms will show results but its a very slow process.
IF we can get meaningful peace time in border issues, via talks we can definitely solve many other issues.

@wanglaokan pls do comment on this bro
Also, Can you pls tag some other fellow members from China who can give a good opinion for a reasonable discussion on this.

Trust doesn't matter to China. When the US bombed our embassy in Yugoslavia, and threatened us with Carriers in 96, add in the current stand off, we still replaced Canada as the number one trade partner of the US.

I mean, no matter what India did or will do, I doubt it's worse than that.

Is Dalai Lama still a problem ? I am sure India's stand is pretty straightforward in that matter.
Of course 1962 is a bitter experience. But that should not mar the present state of affairs, be it offensive or friendly.

Dalai Lama really doesn't matter, at least not in the way one think.

Meeting the Lama is a confirmation of China's power is still insufficient, in terms of actual impact, none.

Think like yourself for a second. Do you really care what China does on a day to day bases? No, you care for shelter, food and comfort. Everything else is secondary, same is true for Tibetans.

When Tibetans are getting good education, new apartment buildings and good jobs as well as travel opportunities, you really think they care about a Ruler they never even met?

There are nut cases that are excluded of course, but as it turns out, burning oneself is not as fun as buying a new car. Who knew.


Bottom line, becoming real friends is impossible. Our interests conflict. India may not have a global mindset yet, but it's impractical to think a nation that size never will. There's only one world and we are both on it.