India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

[El Sidd]

There are too many mechanism a layman won't understand both in the conventional theatre, stragetic weapons and tactical planning. These 3 can be complex for the common layman to wrap their heads around and not to forget the conventional theatre includes all sorts of weaponry that needs to be understood what they can do and how to use them.

Believe this is over your head and needs alot of studying for you to grasp any of this

I guess we both have to wait till 2030. You the absolute expert and me the layman.

 

[indushek]

This is ironic.

Even as I agree with your general point, I feel lost in admiration that you yourself point out the essential difference between 'every party we got today' and the exception, the Jan Sangh.

Every other party might have been self-indulgent, self-serving and inclined to corruption as a habit and a way of life, and inclined to perpetuate themselves in power by creating little pockets of influence for their families, and especially their children. The Jan Sangh, as it stands today, has the same vices.

In addition, the Jan Sangh always had, descending from Savarkar, on one side, and from Hedgewar and Golwalkar on the other side, a toxic hatred for Muslims, and Islamophobia in their DNA.

This is unforgivable.

In effect, it questions the citizenship of 210 Indian citizens, an offence tantamount to treason against the constitution and the state. Tantamount, not legally so, not according to the very laws and the legal system that they flout with such cavalier disregard.

Incidentally, may I remind you that I despise the Congress, largely because of the corruption that they displayed in the years before 1967, that I witnessed first-hand as a college student. However, we both need to refrain from whataboutery, so let me let you off the hook here.


In what way did they do so, precisely? When pinned down, those who flaunt this justification for toxic minority-hating politics talk about the reforms of Hindu personal law (partial reforms, although no Hindutva apologist will acknowledge that) in a unilateral manner, the government control of Hindu temples, and the sops given to Muslims going on pilgrimage to Mecca.

What else was there?

Nobody is able to get more specific.

I never disagreed with any of your criticism of BJP or it's erstwhile Avatar. Like I said before I have no hope for any political party in this Country, they are here to serve themselves not us.

I totally believe you about despising Congress, as I don't think any sane minded person will have admiration for any one party in our Country if he was being honest. We have wolves in sheep's clothing in politics today.
I personally have never had any problem with any belief system, and am not even a religious person despite being from a FC community. I don't even pray properly, and indulge in habits I am not supposed to (the black sheep of home lol). Never had or have any linkage with Sangh remotely even, and anyone I mean its Sangh or individual indulges religious bigotry or Casteist bigotry I despise it.

However the ruckus created in media about this radicalized Hindu, 24/7 has got my goat. It is one of the reasons I have started staying away from media, and haven't watched it for last six years at least. This constant badgering of majority community, I feel has started alienating people from intellectuals. You can't beat everyone with same bat or brush.

More than anything particular, I feel that it's the constant boundary pushing with Majority community sentiments in discourse that has got everyone upset. This is my personal feeling and I will accept, I can be totally wrong here.

I am quite open to that, but once again, what IS the environment that they are operating in, that justifies giving them such a great deal of additional latitude?


Does your need to phrase it as a conditional, as an 'if', not speak for itself?


Once again, two wrongs do not make a right.

Over and above that, none of the other parties made a practice of assaulting students, or detaining dissidents without trial without even the face-saving cover of preventive detention laws.

I want to point out that you have slipped into whataboutery again.

Joe I mentioned it myself, that am doing whataboutery. Accepted that two wrongs don't make it right as well.

By environment I meant the opposition parties like Congress and it's brethren parties, if one has to occupy the seat of power BJP can't be a copy cat can they?

One indulged in minority appeasement optically and the other majority appeasement. Point to be noted is, neither did any practical for their vote bank.

 

[indushek]

Jaichand and Prithviraj, at the barest minimum.

If you wish, open a different thread, and I will fill it in with chapter and verse of how the Indians of that time vied with each other to create conditions to let in, to use your very evocative term, every two-bit warlord.

As a graduated student of history, and as a lifelong student of history thereafter till now, I assure you that what I suggested is not speculation but is based on facts.


That point is well taken. I have no quarrel with that, whatsoever.

Considering my in-laws antecedents, and considering that my last 9 years have been in Hyderabad, you may be sure that along with a smattering of Tamil, and a slightly firmer grip on Kannada, I have a sympathy for the southern point of view, indeed, a distaste for the cow-belt. Not for nothing does my child speak four Indian languages, from the east, the north and two from the south, along with a dialect of one of those last.

I wish I had the time, I will certainly do when I get that.

Good for your child, really happy to hear that.

While am not as hardcore as Tamil brothers being a Telugu person, I certainly agree that South Indians haven't gotten their due nationally. Still I have learnt Hindi

I disagree deeply.

People tend to conflate left and liberal. I am a liberal. There have been many intellects who subscribed to the orthodox left point of view, but it is a common error for sympathisers with the Sangh Parivar to assume that there was a monopoly of the left in academe. They were there, in numbers disproportionate to the political influence that the waning left had in the country, but they were far from monopolistic; they were a faction, like any other.

Where people feel pushed out so much, it is because after the Swatantra Party, there was no genuine right-wing conservative party available (the Jan Sangh is plain fascistic).

Regarding a healthy debate, I have been a member of a group of almost equal numbers of Pakistanis and Indians, and we have discussed everything under the Sun, including religion, specifically including but not limited to Islam, and politics, at deep and searching levels, without the slightest need for intervention by a moderator.

Further, would you describe our present conversation as unhealthy?

@indushek

I believe we should start a new thread, and leave people to dispute how badly Pakistan would trounce India as the major content of this thread. I leave you to do the honours.

I never meant about you Joe, of course we are having a really healthy debate here.
I was talking about the current political discourse really.

I agree totally, I am the culprit here and have hijacked this debate haha.

At work and posting during lunch, will do when I get home.

 

[Olympus81]

For all the sense of bravado, J&K is essentially a stalemate.

India, for all its rhetoric talk about taking Azad Kashmir and GB, but military that will be a suicide. The local population are rabid anti Indian even more so than in Pakistan.

Pakistan, for all its rhetoric is in no position to take IoK. The realization was already there since the Zia days hence the proxy war. Somehow the Generals thought, the LoC and IoK should be kept hot and trigger a cascade of events where the local population rise up. That met up with overwhelming force by the Indian side. If Pakistan tries to cut off supply routes to IoK, which favor the Pakistan side, that will be met with Indian forces opening up another front on the international border.

Both are nuclear powers hence the escalation ladder needs to be properly thought out.

It may seem an unpopular opinion, it will be a good start for both India and Pakistan to realize, that Kashmir issue is unresolvable for the foreseeable future, hence take small confidence building measures, by lowering the temperature diplomatically, keep the LoC cold and start trading with each other.

After what the boys have done to Pakistan, it is high time the politicians take over the helms of foreign policy and relationship with India.

 

[Qutb-ud-din-Aibak]

You either take me out on my shield or I will own that Sub-continent there is nothing inbetween..

The pen is dry (The pen of destiny)

Spoken like a true predatory, champion and a scholar..

It is all or the highway.. Delhi, Mumbai and Deccan regions as per minimum perhaps we can release the southern once such as the Tamils and others we will spare them but not north and central all the way to Deccan region..

Sign and stamped by a Qutb-Ud-Din-Aibak descendant

 

[Imran Khan]

india will be stuppid to having war with failed state like pakistan . no one should waste human lives and money to fight a war with contries like yemen somalia paksitan

 

[Joe Shearer]

I never disagreed with any of your criticism of BJP or it's erstwhile Avatar. Like I said before I have no hope for any political party in this Country, they are here to serve themselves not us.

I totally believe you about despising Congress, as I don't think any sane minded person will have admiration for any one party in our Country if he was being honest. We have wolves in sheep's clothing in politics today.
I personally have never had any problem with any belief system, and am not even a religious person despite being from a FC community. I don't even pray properly, and indulge in habits I am not supposed to (the black sheep of home lol). Never had or have any linkage with Sangh remotely even, and anyone I mean its Sangh or individual indulges religious bigotry or Casteist bigotry I despise it.

This is distressing.

If I have given you the impression that you are personally under criticism, that is wholly incorrect. There was, and is, no such intention. None.

BTW, I am sympathetic to the situation of a forward caste person supportive of the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities, from personal circumstance.

However the ruckus created in media about this radicalized Hindu, 24/7 has got my goat. It is one of the reasons I have started staying away from media, and haven't watched it for last six years at least. This constant badgering of majority community, I feel has started alienating people from intellectuals. You can't beat everyone with same bat or brush.

As a Hindu, I perceive only regular Hindus, and believers in Hindutva. It is not the majority community being badgered, it is the fanatic from the Hindutva edge who is viewed critically.

 

[brational]

Even if India is capable of defeating Pakistan militarily and let's assume Pakistani armed forces surrendered in front of IA, whats next? For me the problem will start from this point. Most of the Indian tax payers like me won't allow a sigle penny towards the upkeepment of the unproductive population. So capturing whole of Pakistan is out of equation.

GB and Azad Kashmir is part of India and India will take that back. Militarily it is doable but non military options are more lucrative. Pakistan will be forced to hand over the occupied area on its own will. GoI is working on it and it is predictable due to the condition of Pakistan today. Thanks to Pakistani Mullahs, Zameendars, Bread Pizza Baniya Army and the last but not the least, The Pakistani Awaam. The more they are indoctrinated, more quickly this will happen. Chhota abbu China bhi nahi rok payega.

BTW, any update on Maryam ka beta? Gazi log kab ayega? Jaldi bhejo mujhe kal Panvel keliye nikal na hai. Hadeeth wale bhaisaab (PBUH) kuch karo.

I stand by these words until death do me parts and yes I said them proudly and nobody can unconvince me and I didn't say it just for the heck of it. I never said the tank part however.

Pakistan will never fight India for Kashmir but for Delhi, and everything else that is India is a price to be won..

By Allah we will bring the fight to them.. Whether we win or not the decision is with the heavans alone but we will bring it that is for damn sure and Fxck Kashmir it is irrelevant.. if shxt hits the fane we going for Delhi, bombey and everything India owns..

You either take me out on my shield or I will own that Sub-continent there is nothing inbetween..

The pen is dry (The pen of destiny)

Chicha, after winning India what will you do? Destroy everything that India built in due course and go to IMF for more money?
Chicha ek comprehensive plan banao ki app kya kya karna chahte ho and keise karna chahte ho (Post winning India). It should include Administration, Economy, Infra, Education, Health etc. Share your thoughts we will discuss here.

 

[Qutb-ud-din-Aibak]

india will be stuppid to having war with failed state like pakistan . no one should waste human lives and money to fight a war with contries like yemen somalia paksitan

Who is this hindu trash go to India mann and line up with them stand with Pritveraj.. Why you even in Pakistan homeboy. Cross the border and seek Indian citizenship I believe they will love to have you.. Also change your flags in PDF.. Good riddance

 

[Joe Shearer]

More than anything particular, I feel that it's the constant boundary pushing with Majority community sentiments in discourse that has got everyone upset. This is my personal feeling and I will accept, I can be totally wrong here.

I did not quite understand this allusion to majority community sentiments and the boundary pushing.

 

[Qutb-ud-din-Aibak]

Even if India is capable of defeating Pakistan militarily and let's assume Pakistani armed forces surrendered in front of IA, whats next? For me the problem will start from this point. Most of the Indian tax payers like me won't allow a sigle penny towards the upkeepment of the unproductive population. So capturing whole of Pakistan is out of equation.

GB and Azad Kashmir is part of India and India will take that back. Militarily it is doable but non military options are more lucrative. Pakistan will be forced to hand over the occupied area on its own will. GoI is working on it and it is predictable due to the condition of Pakistan today. Thanks to Pakistani Mullahs, Zameendars, Bread Pizza Baniya Army and the last but not the least, The Pakistani Awaam. The more they are indoctrinated, more quickly this will happen. Chhota abbu China bhi nahi rok payega.

BTW, any update on Maryam ka beta? Gazi log kab ayega? Jaldi bhejo mujhe kal Panvel keliye nikal na hai. Hadeeth wale bhaisaab (PBUH) kuch karo.

Chicha, after winning India what will you do? Destroy everything that India built in due course and go to IMF for more money?
Chicha ek comprehensive plan banao ki app kya kya karna chahte ho and keise karna chahte ho (Post winning India). It should include Administration, Economy, Infra, Education, Health etc. Share your thoughts we will discuss here.

Lol.. This is like trying to put a camel thru a needle. You don't believe in this farce that you are writting man..

You will be forced to handover Delhi before anyone hands over GB and AK to you.. You can dream as much as you like.. You either surrender to me or there is nothing inbetween

 

[indushek]

This is distressing.

If I have given you the impression that you are personally under criticism, that is wholly incorrect. There was, and is, no such intention. None.

BTW, I am sympathetic to the situation of a forward caste person supportive of the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities, from personal circumstance.


As a Hindu, I perceive only regular Hindus, and believers in Hindutva. It is not the majority community being badgered, it is the fanatic from the Hindutva edge who is viewed critically.

No no I was not making that disclaimer for you, feeling that am under scanner.

Just following the etiquette of a healthy discourse, particularly on a public forum, to give you and others a little background the standpoint I am speaking from.

You are a knowledgeable poster here, and I always respected you. I never thought that you put me under scanner, but we both can't say that others might not misjudge me. So that's why I was stating that, don't be distressed sir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe I mentioned it myself, that am doing whataboutery. Accepted that two wrongs don't make it right as well.

By environment I meant the opposition parties like Congress and it's brethren parties, if one has to occupy the seat of power BJP can't be a copy cat can they?

One indulged in minority appeasement optically and the other majority appeasement. Point to be noted is, neither did any practical for their vote bank.

LOL.

I find myself in the unexpected position of partially agreeing with you. This is quite unusual, and I will take my temperature after finishing posting.

I wish I had the time, I will certainly do when I get that.

Good for your child, really happy to hear that.

While am not as hardcore as Tamil brothers being a Telugu person, I certainly agree that South Indians haven't gotten their due nationally. Still I have learnt Hindi

The only non-parental language that my daughter has is Hindi!

 

[Imran Khan]

Who is this hindu trash go to India mann and line up with them stand with Pritveraj.. Why you even in Pakistan homeboy. Cross the border and seek Indian citizenship I believe they will love to have you.. Also change your flags in PDF.. Good riddance

he is your father ask your mom about him .BSDK

 

[Joe Shearer]

I never meant about you Joe, of course we are having a really healthy debate here.
I was talking about the current political discourse really.

I agree totally, I am the culprit here and have hijacked this debate haha.

At work and posting during lunch, will do when I get home.

Perhaps my take-no-prisoners style of posting has given you (and others) the wrong impression. This is I, at my most pleasant and congenial. I am deeply impressed by the points you have made, and in deep enjoyment.