Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay

[desimorty]

F-22 is a beast in the sky.
When we are talking about the stealth, its not an invisible one, but AMCA is needed for the first wave of the IAF to breach the enemy lines, in high, multi threat environment, when most of the enemy defensive, and surveillance equipments are intact.

1. RCS reduction - The shaping of AMCA looks promising, plus the serpentine airintake duct adds to stealth. For the skin, I think ADA will again go for the composites, and NAL have to come up with exclusive composite for the stealth material. Tin Irridium Oxide Compound aka Ram coating, have been developed by the DRDO long ago, but how much is it effective, have to be seen. In F-22 its the special skin that covers its surface, which need constant and quick replacement and maintainance. From Russia, we heard some news of experiment of the Plasma stealth.

2. Heat Reduction -- The shape of AMCA is fine, and the tail hides some of the engine heat, but not like the US F-22 which has flat engine outlet, and the engine is completely hidden from sides. If I consider F-414IN EPE X 2 engine used in AMCA, then question arises, whether ADA goes for TVC or not. I think India should start Kaveri-2 with 120 Ktn target.

3. EW - Now this is the field which is very important. DRDO/DARE can designed EW suites, comprises of AESA MMR, Maws, RWR, LWR, IRST, OLS, iFF,Internal Jammer, Targeting Pod, Secured link, and Radio. taking various components off the self. HAL have experience in the mission computer with the HAL/Edgewood Mission and display computer in MKI and LCA, and could work for more powerful computer for the data fussion, and better situation awareness.

Brother @@Abingdonboy@@PARIKRAMA@@dadeechi@@AMCA@@nForce For me 5th Gen fighter plane is not just a plane, but its a system, and a plane is just small component of that system. In that system, all the components works together in the coordinated, and comunicationg to each other. IT include not only a plane, satellite, smart weapons, and all the sensors, which aided with the computing power actually gives Pilot the broad view image of the whole battlefield, and the load of options to choose the best one for achieving the target of the Mission. Your thoughts

Source: Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay

RCS reduction is not just whats in the F-22 alone. The YF-23 black widow had other stealth concepts incorporated which are being used on UCAVs.
As far as engine housing and heat reduction, the solution may arrive from the T-50/Pak-fa. What they some up with may be possible to have on the AMCA. Reduces the RnD and there for final product cost.
EW should be dealt with multi vendors. HALs job is to integrate it. Rafales spectrum EW suite may not be limited to just the Rafale.

 

[zebra7]

RCS reduction is not just whats in the F-22 alone. The YF-23 black widow had other stealth concepts incorporated which are being used on UCAVs.

Now lets be honest, AMCA cannot be F-22, AMCA should be the plane that could fulfill the IAF requirement i.e to penetrate the enemy defense line, and fulfill the mission in the threat environment in the early phase of the war. It should be more of the ground attack 5th gen aircraft somehow like F-35 and not the wholesale dog fighter, the lion of the air superiority like F-22.

As far as engine housing and heat reduction, the solution may arrive from the T-50/Pak-fa. What they some up with may be possible to have on the AMCA. Reduces the RnD and there for final product cost.

I think the plan is to use F-414EPE engine or Kaveri -2 engine of 120kt thrust, so how do PAK-FA is related to AMCA. ADA should world with the G.E to reduce the heat signature of the nozzle of the F414 engine and not the russian. Second the heat signature reduction is also from some points from the airframe, where composite reduces the heat signature, and the glass cockpit, which is not related to Russian at all. What Russia can help in AMCA is the smart weapons like new r77-P BVR with Ramjet motor.

EW should be dealt with multi vendors. HALs job is to integrate it. Rafales spectrum EW suite may not be limited to just the Rafale.

EW suite like Spectra of Rafale is quite capable EW suite, but for AMCA DRDO/DARE have to come up with more better solution, better situation awareness, better sensors, better sensor fussion, Secure and faster secure link, Passive sensors, OLS, and optronics.

AMCA should be Indian F-35, and FGFA should be Indian F-22.

 

[AMCA]

Brother @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @dadeechi @AMCA @nForce For me 5th Gen fighter plane is not just a plane, but its a system, and a plane is just small component of that system. In that system, all the components works together in the coordinated, and comunicationg to each other. IT include not only a plane, satellite, smart weapons, and all the sensors, which aided with the computing power actually gives Pilot the broad view image of the whole battlefield, and the load of options to choose the best one for achieving the target of the Mission. Your thoughts

You are right. The Components and critical systems that make a 5th gen Aircraft are an industry by itself and can be incorporated in various mission platforms as an individual system. The AMCA will create a cutting edge ecosystem in the country and will help not just the aviation industry to grow but also other markets wherein these technologies have application.

 

[satish]

WTF are you talking about? Stealth has a lot of forms. The AIM of AMCA is 3 teir stealth.
1- RCS reduction
2- Heat reduction
3 - EW
All these are necessary for stealth. A F-22 flying alone is not stealthy. Because the F-22 would have to turn on its radar, which gives its location away to other aircraft or ground defence systems. Hence why F-22 works on radio silence mode while AWACs or other aircraft track targets and pass on the information to the Raptors.
So you need other capability like created a network of connected aircraft and ground defence systems in order to keep aircraft be it 4 or 5th gen aware and useful.
If you wanna know how the concept works, just ask the Russians. They have a working model of a stealth aircraft and anti stealth radar.

Stealth only works with high frequency radars and that too when the plane is carrying itas weapons internally and when the radar is looking straight forward. All stealth aircraft will be discovered by longwave length radars. Carrying weapons internally will make the aircraft fat and draggy and will also effect its manuaerability and acceleration.

 

[faithfulguy]

A big doubt I have on capabilities of these two organizations to deliver true stealth fighter with 5th gen tech in it.

It look like Hal and drdo do not inspire much confidence with the LCA results. Maybe mkII will bring back the confidence.

 

[desimorty]

Stealth only works with high frequency radars and that too when the plane is carrying itas weapons internally and when the radar is looking straight forward. All stealth aircraft will be discovered by longwave length radars. Carrying weapons internally will make the aircraft fat and draggy and will also effect its manuaerability and acceleration.

Source: Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay | Page 2

Getting tracking with long wave freq is the problem. Hence multiple solutions, including shared data input from multiple radars to get better coordinates on the target. Other solutions are available as well for high freq radar RCS reduction in the YF-23 and X-35 competitor. Also being used on UCAV by Americans.

It look like Hal and drdo do not inspire much confidence with the LCA results. Maybe mkII will bring back the confidence.

Source: Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay | Page 2

Actually when you look into the organizations successes you realize DRDO is India's equivalent of DARPA of America.
But DARPA is American and on a different league as far as bleeding edge tech is concerned.
DRDO has made the leap from license production of mig-21/27 straight into 4gen aircraft. India's RnD aircraft industry was non existent at the time. If you compare what China had managed to do, then the Tejas despite being late was certainly a great design, but a great example of poor project management. China has a military RnD budget 15 times the size of India's and the reason for this is because China has military embargo on it by western nations which has led China to develop the technology on their own from scratch. The J-10 is example. Its not a quantum jump like DRDO/HAL are trying to do but the J-10 is highly mutilated J-7. Still inherent the J-7s slight flaws ie heavy metal use. The JF-17 is even more closely related to the J-7 and hence has far too many inherent flaws which is why the PLAAF dropped it. The Tejas, is not using a existing line as the J-10 and JF-17 are using. So it was understandable they didn't need to use tried and payed for technology because they didn't exist. Regardless of the sucess of LCA or whatever aviation project will always have critical reporting on it when the media sees fit and DRDOs job is not propagate its success. That is the job of politicians.

 

[MilSpec]

freakin velle writers of idrw.

There are no dimensional or engineering designs frozen or released comment on efficacy of weapons bay efficacy.

Inconsistency in design of AMCA’s Internal Weapons Bay
PublishedNovember 14, 2015

SOURCE: SUDESH CHARI / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

One of the most critical nose-on low observability design elements going into a Stealth fighter jet is internal weapons bays. for Stealth missions aircraft entirely and critically depends on in its Internal weapons to carry out suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) or Strike missions in hostile enemy territories.

India’s own 5th generation fighter AMCA Program is all set to take off and official funding for the project is likely to be cleared by the end of this year. with aerodynamic design optimisation nearly completed AMCA’s final design is more or less frozen, but it still seems there is lack of clarity on AMCA’s Internal Weapons bay design aspect.

Above Computer design images released by Advanced Projects & Technologies (AP&T) Directorate of India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) few years back showed smaller side weapons bay like exactly found on F-22 Raptor which could store an Air-Air missile and can be used in a Dogfight.

Earlier images showed Two load of 1000lb PGMs along with Two Air-to-Air BVRAAMs in its Main Internal Weapons bay while Two Side bays at each side showcased one Close Combat ranged WVR missiles each, which was nearly identical to F-22 Weapons load configuration with similar looking weapons bays.

Latest computer design images released by ADA earlier this year at sidelines of Aero India have completely eliminated side internal weapons bay for reasons never officially explained thus indicating Internal weapons carrying capability of AMCA has been further lowered.

Above images released by ADA shows 3 possible configurations of Internal weapons bay. 1st image shows AMCA carrying 5 Medium ranged beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) which looks quite familiar to American AIM-120 AMRAAM, a missile which India has never operated in any of its fighter aircraft fleet.

In 2nd image, AMCA is shown carrying Russian Vympel R-77 RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) medium-range air-to-air missile which are operated by Indian Air Force but due to a bigger diameters of the missile than American AIM-120 AMRAAM carriage capacity has been limited to 4 missiles under its main weapons load.

In the 3rd image, AMCA is shown carrying Two bombs which are very similar to American GBU-31/32/38 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), along with two Medium ranged beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles.

Current images of Internal weapons bay suggests that they will not be deep enough to hold indigenously manufactured Sudarshan laser-guided bombs (LGB) nor shows Indian designed Astra BVRAAMs currently at the developmental stage.

Inconsistency in designs of Internal weapons bay suggests that final weapons configuration of AMCA has still not been arrived yet by ADA and Indian Air force.

lack of Indigenously developed BVRs and Bombs optimised for carriage in Internal weapons bay will greatly hinder Internal weapons bays design of AMCA. Internal Bay will need to be constantly optimised at regular intervals till most of India’s future weapons systems are miniaturized for operations from Internal weapons bays.

India will need to fast track development of indigenous weapons systems or miniaturization of developed weapons systems so that when AMCA is ready for production its weaponry are in place before induction into air force .

 

[satish]

Getting tracking with long wave freq is the problem. Hence multiple solutions, including shared data input from multiple radars to get better coordinates on the target. Other solutions are available as well for high freq radar RCS reduction in the YF-23 and X-35 competitor. Also being used on UCAV by Americans.

Actually when you look into the organizations successes you realize DRDO is India's equivalent of DARPA of America.
But DARPA is American and on a different league as far as bleeding edge tech is concerned.
DRDO has made the leap from license production of mig-21/27 straight into 4gen aircraft. India's RnD aircraft industry was non existent at the time. If you compare what China had managed to do, then the Tejas despite being late was certainly a great design, but a great example of poor project management. China has a military RnD budget 15 times the size of India's and the reason for this is because China has military embargo on it by western nations which has led China to develop the technology on their own from scratch. The J-10 is example. Its not a quantum jump like DRDO/HAL are trying to do but the J-10 is highly mutilated J-7. Still inherent the J-7s slight flaws ie heavy metal use. The JF-17 is even more closely related to the J-7 and hence has far too many inherent flaws which is why the PLAAF dropped it. The Tejas, is not using a existing line as the J-10 and JF-17 are using. So it was understandable they didn't need to use tried and payed for technology because they didn't exist. Regardless of the sucess of LCA or whatever aviation project will always have critical reporting on it when the media sees fit and DRDOs job is not propagate its success. That is the job of politicians.[/QUOT

Russia has been building long wavelength radars since ww2. That's how the Serbs shot down f-117 stealth aircraft back in 1999. Its not difficult to acquire them. But the penalty that stealthy design puts on the performance of a aircraft is very high compared to the advantages of stealth itself, when ww2 radars can detect it.

 

[GR!FF!N]

That's how the Serbs shot down f-117 stealth aircraft back in 1999.

One of the reason why F-117 got shot down was "Malfunctioning Bomb bay door"

 

[Perpendicular]

It look like Hal and drdo do not inspire much confidence with the LCA results. Maybe mkII will bring back the confidence.

Not really.
It is about time to limit the portfolio or areas specifically of these organisations which should gradually result in transfer of technologies, infrastructure to private defence manufacturers through the process of privitisation, if we ever to mature our defence industry.
With regards to AMCA we need to develop not only advanced sensors, radars, enough processing power for 360 awareness but also to miniaturize all of them to an extent to fit in a limited space on a medium sized jet.
Doubt turns to belief when status of our own aesa radar comes upfront. All in all AMCA will be 4.5++gen aircraft.
My view.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Another potential failure in the making. DRDO/HAL/PSU must acknowledge hey have no idea how to build a 5th gen aircraft. Not a single engineering college/university in India is renowned for aeronautical engineering. India will have to seek foreign assistance and go for joint venture as a junior partner.

 

[Perpendicular]

Another potential failure in the making. DRDO/HAL/PSU must acknowledge hey have no idea how to build a 5th gen aircraft. Not a single engineering college/university in India is renowned for aeronautical engineering. India will have to seek foreign assistance and go for joint venture as a junior partner.

Potentially difficult to achieve but far from a failure.

 

[Indian Patriot]

freakin velle writers of idrw.

So why don't you educate the people here about the stellar success of HAL/DRDO in world-class aircraft making?

 

[satish]

One of the reason why F-117 got shot down was "Malfunctioning Bomb bay door"

Nope

Serbs figured out how to detect stealth aircraft using their 1960 era radar and they shot it down. Every country is going to do same thing if they think they are invaded by a stealth aircraft.

Stealth is only propaganda. It has been and will be useless in actual combat.

 

[MilSpec]

So why don't you educate the people here about the stellar success of HAL/DRDO in world-class aircraft making?

too low quality of a post to take seriously....