IJT Delays, options for IAF

[shree835]

With 85 aircrafts on order, HAL has failed to supply even one IJT -36 LSP aircraft to Indian Air force, Maintaining more than three decade old Kiran Trainer aircrafts which have reached retirement age is turning out to be a Hercules task for air force personnel, HAL with a dedicated team in place to sort out issues which IJT -36 is facing, has made no progress on the aircraft.


IJT -36 still needs a lot of testing and still needs to clear spin test, other issues faced by the aircraft are controls, engine issues and weight of the aircraft. Russian AL-55I is also suffering from weight issues and has failed to provide required thrust; failure of Russian AL-55I resulted into crash of one of the IJT-36 Prototype. Russian help has been sorted in fixing issues with AL-55I engine and it seems HAL will rope in BAE to help fix issues with IJT-36.



IAF on other hand has put follow-on order for 37 more Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 aircraft that will take the total planes with IAF to 112, additional planes will be used in Stage-II along with Kiran aircrafts, but it seems to be temporary fix. If HAL is not able to fix issues of IJT-36 aircraft IAF will have to look for other options. options include import of IJT from abroad , Russian have been pushing YAK-130 from some time now , other option will be to upgrade Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 to carry weapons for training pilots , or operate Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 and Bae Hawks in Stage-II .

Defence Minister A.K. Antony in Aero India 2013 set 2015 as the deadline for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to deliver the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) to the Air Force.HAL has promised IOC for aircraft by end of this year, we can only hope HAL gets its act right and is able to fix the aircraft in time, scrapping the project will only highlight utter lack of failure of India’s premier Aeronautics company in developing a very basic aircraft for countries air force.

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

 

[Koovie]

Buy more Hawks ??!!

 

[Sergi]

Buy more Hawks ??!!

You want our pilots to use AJT for IJT trainning ???

 

[Skull and Bones]

You want our pilots to use AJT for IJT trainning ???

The demarcation isn't that distinct, a trainee pilot can safely move to Hawks from Pilatus.

 

[Sergi]

The demarcation isn't that distinct, a trainee pilot can safely move to Hawks from Pilatus.

Actually that's what we are doing from time to time.
But we never made it standard procedure. Or did we ???

 

[Contrarian]

What is the big deal?

The world is already moving towards a 2 stage training process as airplanes now have wider capabilities than before.

If HAL is able to give IJT good enough, if not Pilatus and Hawks do just fine.

 

[arp2041]

The demarcation isn't that distinct, a trainee pilot can safely move to Hawks from Pilatus.

I think that IAF will order more Pilatus (from current 75) & make the nos. in excess of 150, they will be used for both basic as well as intermediate training.

@Abingdonboy

 

[GR!FF!N]

isn't YAK-130 another AJT??its not IJT either..anyway,India should stick with Sitara..It is going to be a successful project only if engine problem sorted out..we must push Russians for adressing this issues fast.this project is already behind its schedule for quite some years now..

 

[Skull and Bones]

Actually that's what we are doing from time to time.
But we never made it standard procedure. Or did we ???

A decade back, trainee pilots moved directly to Mig-21s from Kirans, so the situation is whole lot better now. And modern AJTs like Hawks or Yak-130s fulfill 80% of pilot training requirements. So there isn't any concern ATM.

 

[anant_s]

The demarcation isn't that distinct, a trainee pilot can safely move to Hawks from Pilatus.

that seems to be a logical step considering the design issues with IJT Sitara. Theres no point in playing with safety of rookie pilots. If the training schedule can be streamlined and made into two stage, Pilatus followed by Hawk, IAF can actually save money and preciuos time.

 

[Skull and Bones]

that seems to be a logical step considering the design issues with IJT Sitara. Theres no point in playing with safety of rookie pilots. If the training schedule can be streamlined and made into two stage, Pilatus followed by Hawk, IAF can actually save money and preciuos time.

That's one way of looking at it.

Or one can reserve Hawks only for advanced training after inducting IJTs. As the Hawks costs upward of $20 million per aircraft, while the price of Sitara is touted to be around $10-12 million. So there is a gap for an intermediate jet trainer, but the situation isn't that demanding, and there is ample amount of time for HAL to rectify the problems.

 

[Nishan_101]

With 85 aircrafts on order, HAL has failed to supply even one IJT -36 LSP aircraft to Indian Air force, Maintaining more than three decade old Kiran Trainer aircrafts which have reached retirement age is turning out to be a Hercules task for air force personnel, HAL with a dedicated team in place to sort out issues which IJT -36 is facing, has made no progress on the aircraft.


IJT -36 still needs a lot of testing and still needs to clear spin test, other issues faced by the aircraft are controls, engine issues and weight of the aircraft. Russian AL-55I is also suffering from weight issues and has failed to provide required thrust; failure of Russian AL-55I resulted into crash of one of the IJT-36 Prototype. Russian help has been sorted in fixing issues with AL-55I engine and it seems HAL will rope in BAE to help fix issues with IJT-36.



IAF on other hand has put follow-on order for 37 more Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 aircraft that will take the total planes with IAF to 112, additional planes will be used in Stage-II along with Kiran aircrafts, but it seems to be temporary fix. If HAL is not able to fix issues of IJT-36 aircraft IAF will have to look for other options. options include import of IJT from abroad , Russian have been pushing YAK-130 from some time now , other option will be to upgrade Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 to carry weapons for training pilots , or operate Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 and Bae Hawks in Stage-II .

Defence Minister A.K. Antony in Aero India 2013 set 2015 as the deadline for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to deliver the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) to the Air Force.HAL has promised IOC for aircraft by end of this year, we can only hope HAL gets its act right and is able to fix the aircraft in time, scrapping the project will only highlight utter lack of failure of India’s premier Aeronautics company in developing a very basic aircraft for countries air force.

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

So what are the available options for IAF from EU, USA and Russian side along with South American side for IJTss...
Share please with pictures and details....

Although heard that IAF might go for two types but now its looks three types because of their own program as well.

 

[anant_s]

First Hawk Gun Pod Handed Over to DGAQA : HAL | idrw.org

That's one way of looking at it.

Or one can reserve Hawks only for advanced training after inducting IJTs. As the Hawks costs upward of $20 million per aircraft, while the price of Sitara is touted to be around $10-12 million. So there is a gap for an intermediate jet trainer, but the situation isn't that demanding, and there is ample amount of time for HAL to rectify the problems.

Rather than drawing lines based on the unit price tag, i believe IAF would be looking at the utility of trainers and their role in the training program. IJT without a doubt would be a welcome addition but with quantum of problems that has marred the development, it is quite likely that some years from now IAF may be forced to adopt two trainer program.
Also there have been news of possibility of using AJT Hawks as light attack aircrafts, so these may actually be of some combat use as well.

HAL in its E-Magazine CONNECT has informed that Shri B.V. Aruna Kumar, Chief Manager (Drop Tank), Aircraft Division handed over first fabricated Hawk Gun pod to DGAQA representative on March 22, 2013.
Shri K. Naresh Babu, MD(BC), Shri T. Mohapatra, General Manager (Aircraft) and Shri Franklin Darilee, DM (Drop Tank) were present on the occasion.

First Hawk Gun Pod Handed Over to DGAQA : HAL | idrw.org

 

[Yogi]

That's one way of looking at it.

Or one can reserve Hawks only for advanced training after inducting IJTs. As the Hawks costs upward of $20 million per aircraft, while the price of Sitara is touted to be around $10-12 million. So there is a gap for an intermediate jet trainer, but the situation isn't that demanding, and there is ample amount of time for HAL to rectify the problems.

But the last follow on order for 57 Hawks we placed was for only $750 M thats roughly $13.15M a piece.

Livefist: India Signs Up For 57 More BAE Hawk Jet Trainers

So since the license production has already lowered the cost than what the use of IJT???

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think that IAF will order more Pilatus (from current 75) & make the nos. in excess of 150, they will be used for both basic as well as intermediate training.

@Abingdonboy

The IAF was always going to order more PC-7s- the IAF's requirement for BTTs is ~200-250 and given the IAF's recent comments this requirement was always set to be Pilatus' now with the HTT-40 a no-go as far as the IAF are concerned.


I don't see how buying more PC-7s is what the IAF needs.


Ever since the IAF went ahead and ordered the PC-7 Mk.2 and then More BAE Hawks the likelihood of the IJT ever making it into IAF service in any meaningful way looked remote. The fact is the idea of an IJT is outdated and mooted in the time when the IAF had a huge gap between the Deepak BTT and advanced BAE HAWK AJTs. The former was as basic as they came and the latter (especially considering it was the Mk.132, the most advanced Hawk variant to date) was a state of the art trainer that was specifically designed to train pilots in the latest modern combat aircraft systems such as the EFT. However the gap between the PC-7 and HAWK is not that significant enough to merit the IJT IMHO. The fact that both systems come with full-mission ground based trainers as per IAF contracts and that simulator training is now a key part of the IAF's training regime means that all the issues are going to be sorted out on the ground.

The fact is many airforces who operate the PC-7 and HAWK do not have any third training a/c in between and rookie pilots simply transition from the PC-7 to Hawk with little problem. This is proven and means the IJT has been proven to be non-essential today.


If the IJT had come sooner then it could have found its place in the IAF but now the IAF has looked beyond this trainer and set about developing its own comprehensive pilot training programme that doesn't neasercarily have room for the IJT.


I'd argue that what the IAF now could do with is a supersonic LIFT. Something like the KAI T-50 could be very useful for the IAF and I think the LCA could be developed into a very successful and effective LIFT with little development work.



As sad it is to say, the IJT has turned into another of HAL's White Elephants, after a very bright start to the project (22 months from design to first flight is an almost unparrelled achievement) the project lost its way after successive failures and has been seemingly adrift ever since.


I think more likely than not the IJT will not be inducted in to IAF service in any meaningful numbers as the IAF doesn't have the time to waste inducting something it doesn't need and it certainly doesn't need the IJT anymore, even the requirement for ~21 for the IAF's display team (Surya KIRAN) that had been speculated, has evaporated with the order now going to BAE for the HAWK AJTs.