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Identity crisis - how do we fix this?

On topic, Kudos to @Indus Pakistan for raising this issue. It is an elephant in the room as practically all Pakistanis will have seen such a restaurant abroad at least once. I know a Mirpuri man here in Sweden who runs an "Indian" restaurant and has pictures of Lahore Qila and Minar e Pakistan inside haha! The Indian sign outside is to drag the average Swede into the restaurant, which from his commercial point of view makes perfect sense.

However this also contributes in perpetuating the same stereotypical view foreigners have of us, i.e. Pakistan = break away of India. Nobody will look at you differently if you yourself keep reinforcing the wrong image they have of us. So how do we fix this? Well it always boils down to education doesnt it? Pakistan lacks a strong "Pakistani" identity because the state never enforced such an identity on people from a young age. For those who keep harping on about Pakistani being an artificial identity, yes it is but then so is practically every other identity on the planet. Identity is what we choose to identify ourselves as. Nobody dropped out of heaven as an Englishman or a Brazilian or a Russian. Rather these identities in different historical periods were a culmination of efforts by political entities to unite and converge various population groups so as to achieve greater domestic cohesion and resist foreign invasions (in both a literal physical sense and/or culturally).

This leads one to the question then, why did the Pakistani state never enforce a strong Pakistani identity on its people via education? As per my observation there are several reasons behind this but they range from general incompetance and an inability to create policies that will benefit the nation in the long run, to a large portion of society and indeed the government not believing in a national identity, instead seeking solace in religious identity alone. For many Pakistan is and will remain a religious state for the Muslims of South Asia. This naturally prevents the growth of a strong domestic identity. A third reason is that in the immediate aftermath of independence the writ of the state was not fully established, with Pakistan inheriting the most disenfranchised and illiterate parts of British India, whilst also inheriting an aristocratic feudal elite which viewed their own personal interests above those of the state. The current generation running restaurants abroad are a product of this immediate post-colonial generation.

It's an interesting question and its great to see it popping up now because if Pakistan is to develop and establish itself a fully sovereign state rather than a shadow of India, these will need looking into.
 
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On topic, Kudos to @Indus Pakistan for raising this issue. It is an elephant in the room as practically all Pakistanis will have seen such a restaurant abroad at least once. I know a Mirpuri man here in Sweden who runs an "Indian" restaurant and has pictures of Lahore Qila and Minar e Pakistan inside haha! The Indian sign outside is to drag the average Swede into the restaurant, which from his commercial point of view makes perfect sense.

However this also contributes in perpetuating the same stereotypical view foreigners have of us, i.e. Pakistan = break away of India. Nobody will look at you differently if you yourself keep reinforcing the wrong image they have of us. So how do we fix this? Well it always boils down to education doesnt it? Pakistan lacks a strong "Pakistani" identity because the state never enforced such an identity on people from a young age. For those who keep harping on about Pakistani being an artificial identity, yes it is but then so is practically every other identity on the planet. Identity is what we choose to identify ourselves as. Nobody dropped out of heaven as an Englishman or a Brazilian or a Russian. Rather these identities in different historical periods were a culmination of efforts by political entities to unite and converge various population groups so as to achieve greater domestic cohesion and resist foreign invasions (in both a literal physical sense and/or culturally).

This leads one to the question then, why did the Pakistani state never enforce a strong Pakistani identity on its people via education? As per my observation there are several reasons behind this but they range from general incompetance and an inability to create policies that will benefit the nation in the long run, to a large portion of society and indeed the government not believing in a national identity, instead seeking solace in religious identity alone. For many Pakistan is and will remain a religious state for the Muslims of South Asia. This naturally prevents the growth of a strong domestic identity. A third reason is that in the immediate aftermath of independence the writ of the state was not fully established, with Pakistan inheriting the most disenfranchised and illiterate parts of British India, whilst also inheriting an aristocratic feudal elite which viewed their own personal interests above those of the state. The current generation running restaurants abroad are a product of this immediate post-colonial generation.

It's an interesting question and its great to see it popping up now because if Pakistan is to develop and establish itself a fully sovereign state rather than a shadow of India, these will need looking into.

Well, even before developing 'Identity', Pakistani need to get rid of this weird psyche of 'Pakistan is defined as NOT India'. Pakistan has "Absolutely Nothing in Common With India". Its hilarious! When you say my identity is NOT X, you are already making X as a part of your identity.

Ask @Iqbal Ali , he always insists, Pakistan is "NOT India". Pakistani are absolutely different than Indians. Its so god damn funny that in that process he marks Pakistan with India.

Best idea is to remove an Identity based on India in anyway. Basically, Pakistan is Pakistan, a Islamic nation around Indus river. Indus river and Islam should be your part of identity, not being "NOT India".

Rest is just accident of History and Geography. Swiss and Austrian speak German but they don't go telling the world that "We are NOT Germans". Having common food items, looks, language, dresses to north and north west India is more of a accident of geography and historic legacy.
 
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Why are you eating tacos in New York in the first place? I hope those tacos were halal.

I didn't eat there, but have friends who wanted to go.

I doubt a d*ckhe@d like you is that smart to discern. You must have had Indian food in Pakistani restaurant or worse Bangladeshi one :D



:tup::tup: Have plans to visit Pakistan some time in the future.

Sounds like you have a lot of interest in dickheads. And don't come to Pakistan. As an Indian you will be picked up and tortured by some spooks.
 
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Well, even before developing 'Identity', Pakistani need to get rid of this weird psyche of 'Pakistan is defined as NOT India'. Pakistan has "Absolutely Nothing in Common With India". Its hilarious! When you say my identity is NOT X, you are already making X as a part of your identity.

Ask @Iqbal Ali , he always insists, Pakistan is "NOT India". Pakistani are absolutely different than Indians. Its so god damn funny that in that process he marks Pakistan with India.

Best idea is to remove an Identity based on India in anyway. Basically, Pakistan is Pakistan, a Islamic nation around Indus river. Indus river and Islam should be your part of identity, not being "NOT India".

Rest is just accident of History and Geography. Swiss and Austrian speak German but they don't go telling the world that "We are NOT Germans". Having common food items, looks, language, dresses to north and north west India is more of a accident of geography and historic legacy.
Listen, we Pakistanis have nothing to do with you Indians.

We are completely different from you guys.

Now shoo.
 
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So my family have come back from holiday in Rome, Italy. I could not go because of some business demands. In Rome after few days they yearned for Pakistani food. So they found a nice place which served good, simple Pakistani food. The restaurent owner was incredibly nice and gave personal service once he found out they were of Pakistani origin. So no complaints there.

The guy was about mid 40s and had migrated from Eminabad, Pakistan about 5 years before. So he had done good for himself. From nothing he had worked hard and now ran a small restaurent eve if the inside decor was gaudy and heap. The food though was good.

To recap this he was over the moon to see fellow Pakistanis even if they were from UK. He asked them where they were from in Pakistan etc. Being in his mid 40s he was born at least 25 years after Pakistan became independant from British rule. To sum up he was a full product of Pakistan and had only left as migrant 5 years before. He had never been anywhere else then his native Pakistan and Italy. Below is his card for his restaurent.


SMGV18D.jpg



Notice he has decided to brand and sell his restaurent as "Indian" and just as after thought added "Pakistan". No Indian ever on mother earth would add "Pakistan" on anything. Yet a 'pucca' Pakistani is branding himself as Indian. This is sad and tragic. Pakistan now is a elderly country and one of senior members at UN. Most UN countries came about in 1950s, 1060s, 1970s. UAE is from 1970s. Singapore is from 1960s. Yet after 70 years this guy has a weak sense of identity or conflicted indentity that he needs to prefix his identity with "Indian". This exposes something terrible and deep malaise in the very notion of being Pakistan and identity as a nation.

Is there any hope for us out of this befuddled idea off who we are?


Here goes my rant and What I wish I could do for Pakistan. What Pakistan need is secular ultra nationalism based solely on Pakistaniyat because religion( a twisted version of Islam spread by a certain brand of Mullahs) and the establishment has played a negative role in Pakistan's society. Pakistanis still look up-to Arabs like a bunch of slaves because they share the same religion with Arabs but on the other hand large portion of scum class in Pakistan are obsessed with Indian movies. Talk about identity crisis.

PS: I consider a great insult if someone called me Indian, I have never claimed and will never claim to be Indian. Can't say the same about semi educated people mostly from rural Punjab who add Indian label to make money in Europe and USA. Why can't they sell the Pakistani label? The first blame goes on religious extremism and Pakistan's reputation in the international world. There are many poorer and younger countries then Pakistan yet they feel pride in their nation. We still have a portion of population that care more about making extra £££ rather then trying to spread a positive image of Pakistan.
 
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Well, even before developing 'Identity', Pakistani need to get rid of this weird psyche of 'Pakistan is defined as NOT India'. Pakistan has "Absolutely Nothing in Common With India". Its hilarious! When you say my identity is NOT X, you are already making X as a part of your identity.

Ask @Iqbal Ali , he always insists, Pakistan is "NOT India". Pakistani are absolutely different than Indians. Its so god damn funny that in that process he marks Pakistan with India.

Best idea is to remove an Identity based on India in anyway. Basically, Pakistan is Pakistan, a Islamic nation around Indus river. Indus river and Islam should be your part of identity, not being "NOT India".

Rest is just accident of History and Geography. Swiss and Austrian speak German but they don't go telling the world that "We are NOT Germans". Having common food items, looks, language, dresses to north and north west India is more of a accident of geography and historic legacy.

Forget Pakistan, even two regions of India are not same. Are you NOT Manipuri and NOT Tamil - or you and they are same just because both of you are tagged "Indian"?
 
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Forget Pakistan, even two regions of India are not same. Are you NOT Manipuri and NOT Tamil - or you and they are same just because both of you are tagged "Indian"?
I thought this thread was about Pakistan.

BTW FYI I am not an Indian national.
@WebMaster see? Again the Same confusion. Better fix my flag.

Listen, we Pakistanis have nothing to do with you Indians.

We are completely different from you guys.

Now shoo.
Hahahahahaha!

@Indus Pakistan see what I meant?

Here goes my rant and What I wish I could do for Pakistan. What Pakistan need is secular ultra nationalism based solely on Pakistaniyat because religion( a twisted version of Islam spread by a certain brand of Mullahs) and the establishment has played a negative role in Pakistan's society. Pakistanis still look up-to Arabs like a bunch of slaves because they share the same religion with Arabs but on the other hand large portion of scum class in Pakistan are obsessed with Indian movies. Talk about identity crisis.

PS: I consider a great insult if someone called me Indian, I have never claimed and will never claim to be Indian. Can't say the same about semi educated people mostly from rural Punjab who add Indian label to make money in Europe and USA. Why can't they sell the Pakistani label? The first blame goes on religious extremism and Pakistan's reputation in the international world. There are many poorer and younger countries then Pakistan yet they feel pride in their nation. We still have a portion of population that care more about making extra £££ rather then trying to spread a positive image of Pakistan.
I believe it will be hard to divorce Pakistani nationalism from Islam. That said if Ireland can be catholic and Irish why not Pakistan be Islamic and Pakistani.
 
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a large portion of society and indeed the government not believing in a national identity, instead seeking solace in religious identity alone. For many Pakistan is and will remain a religious state for the Muslims of South Asia. This naturally prevents the growth of a strong domestic identity.

This is a very profound observation, Which i think is critical to the subject matter being discussed.. @Indus Pakistan
 
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Some great posts here including from some Indian members. Thanks everybody. I have been too busy to post my thoughts but will do later in the evening. Keep those great posts coming .....
 
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It's difficult for Pakistan to have an identity other than Islam when Islam was the plinth on which its founding father asked for and created it.

It's as they say. Careful what you ask for. Coz you might actually get it.

Indians all belong to one civilization. Hindu.

Pakistanis are 60% Hindu, 40% Zoroastrian. And besides trade, waxing and waning political influence, and the grey cultural area common between population groups, with some genetic mingling, there is no commonality at all.

It's no coincidence that Afghanistan, KP and Balochistan (both the Pakistani and Iranian bits) are in constant turmoil.

That's the fate of buffer states.

Cheers, Doc
 
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It's difficult for Pakistan to have an identity other than Islam when Islam was the plinth on which its founding father asked for and created it.

It's as they say. Careful what you ask for. Coz you might actually get it.

Indians all belong to one civilization. Hindu.

Pakistanis are 60% Hindu, 40% Zoroastrian. And besides trade, waxing and waning political influence, and the grey cultural area common between population groups, with some genetic mingling, there is no commonality at all.

It's no coincidence that Afghanistan, KP and Balochistan (both the Pakistani and Iranian bits) are in constant turmoil.

That's the fate of buffer states.

Cheers, Doc

More Buddhist than Hindu, but great insight from a 1000 year old refugee.
 
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More Buddhist than Hindu, but great insight from a 1000 year old refugee.

Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.

You could use E'ranic (encompassing Mithraism, Magiism, Zoroastrianism) and Dharmic if you are more comfortable with that. For these were and are the base ancestral spiritual DNA of the region and populace that now identifies as Pakistani.

Islam was meant to cobble the two together. Has it? I guess that is the question we try to answer on this thread.

Cheers, Doc
 
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What is with PDF's obsession with food related threads though......first there was the great Biryani Battle of 2018, now this.
Maybe food just has a clear cut way of differentiating people.
 
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