How you rank your identities

[Soumitra]

@Soumitra @Proudpakistaniguy

Anyone that voted for Modi in the UP elections, after he promoted Hindu nationalism over Indian nationalism shows they value their Hindu values over their Indian values. Just look at how divisive and communal his campaign was. It also shows why India is the fourth worst country in the world for religious intolerance/unrest/hostilities and religious violence.

https://qz.com/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

Yet, you see so-called "Indian nationalists" deny there is state discrimination and majoritarianism against non-Hindu minorities in India. If you were an Indian nationalist, you would have a bigger heart towards the plight of minorities against your state discrimination. But like the Modi sarkar, you play the Hindu victim card, when what you provide to the minorities is pittance in relation to the state discrimination they face. Live as a non-Hindu minority in India, and then I'd like to see what you think.

I am a secular Pakistani, who places his Pakistani identity first, and religious identity later, and have openly defended the minorities persecuted in our country. I pray occasionally, and do the basics in Islam, but I wouldn't say I'm a fully practicing Muslim unfortunately. But I salute the courage of Proudpakistaniguy for stating that he places his Muslim identity first and Pakistani second. It is a difference of opinion, but at least we are honest about it.

I have not seen honesty from Indians on this issue, sadly.

I dont have to justify myself to a Pakistani. Whatever I have to say I have said in my previous post.

Bottom line is India will NOT give muslims any special privilages atleast until BJP is there in power.

Deal with it

 

[sbh02]

I dont have to justify myself to a Pakistani. Whatever I have to say I have said in my previous post.

Bottom line is India will NOT give muslims any special privilages atleast until BJP is there in power.

Deal with it

See, you are admitting you have no justification for calling yourself an Indian nationalist. You are a Hindutva supporter. Might as well be honest about it.

you sir actually have no idea as why BJP won in UP let me tell you few major points

1. BSP+SP+Congress gundagardee +mismangement and phonee Vote bank politics of appeasement which made them look lame and weak both in front of so called DALIT,OBC, SC/ST vote banks and Mulims votebanks which they always treated only as vote banks

The BJP exploited this perception that SP/BSP were favoring Muslim votebanks, when the development of UP was not favoring any "votebank". It is just that UP as a whole is underdeveloped. But Modi said that the SP/BSP were favoring Muslims over Hindus, and that is not the case at all; but the majority Hindus in their blind hatred of Muslims fell for this.

2. too much corruption and no work on ground and people were sick of there women getting harressed by SP/BSP goons and state police standing as silent specatators

Same can be said about BJP, despite their promises of sab ka saath sab ka vikaas, their demonetization drive failed, didn't fulfill any of their campaign promises; and the BJP sarkar has been so abysmal in job creation, that they didn't mention anything in their this year's budget.

3. rising of pro ISIS and al queda type elements and exodus of hindus which united hindus and brojke legacy jaat paat ki rajniti in hindus

Most of the ISIS supporters have come from south India (Kerala etc), not in UP. Just like you guys are lying about ISIS in Kashmir, there is no ISIS in Kashmir, and there have been no ISIS militants found in Kashmir. Again, it was Modi lying through his teeth against Muslims, so he could exploit the Hindu hatred for them in the form of votes.

 

[GURU DUTT]

See, you are admitting you have no justification for calling yourself an Indian nationalist. You are a Hindutva supporter. Might as well be honest about it.



The BJP exploited this perception that SP/BSP were favoring Muslim votebanks, when the development of UP was not favoring any "votebank". It is just that UP as a whole is underdeveloped. But Modi said that the SP/BSP were favoring Muslims over Hindus, and that is not the case at all; but the majority Hindus in their blind hatred of Muslims fell for this.



Same can be said about BJP, despite their promises of sab ka saath sab ka vikaas, their demonetization drive failed, didn't fulfill any of their campaign promises; and the BJP sarkar has been so abysmal in job creation, that they didn't mention anything in their this year's budget.



Most of the ISIS supporters have come from south India (Kerala etc), not in UP. Just like you guys are lying about ISIS in Kashmir, there is no ISIS in Kashmir, and there have been no ISIS militants found in Kashmir. Again, it was Modi lying through his teeth against Muslims, so he could exploit the Hindu hatred for them in the form of votes.

people are not fools ethy know over a period of time who is taking them for a ride in name of caste and religion and who is performing but is always given a bad name .... honest and good works speaks for itself and thats NaMo's & BJP's biggest strength no matter how much paid media or opposition scream you can not convince a common voter who has seen it all day in and day out so perceptions do not matter when facts are in front of your eyes and SP and BSP and congress are clearlly corrupt and appeasing Dalots and muslims by giving them hajj subsidies and other freebies and penssions but doing nothing in terms of providing there youth long term employent and skill develpment initiatives and improoving there Modern eductional initaiatives and bringing them to mainstream

while BJP is doing and promissing just the opposite and showing the work in all its ruled states and Dalits and muslism living in BJP ruled states are the biggest ambassadors of BJP in UP elections which turned the tide in BJP favour by influencing non BJP voter to come to BJP fold for once and then there are young voters who see NaMo as a dynamic non corruptible leader changing india and fighting the corrupt system with a bale team so all want to chip in wit there contribution and do not want to be left out hence the support

but pakistanies just hate India and NaMo so so much due to propaganda in there media without knowuing the fact that most of this media propoganda in india was done by congress led media for there own power securing gioals and now look where congress is and why are they here do pakistanies not feeling the crunth and birnt of corruption themselfs if indians have thrown out corrput congressies why are pakistanies still stuckk with corrupt congressi propogandda ?

think about it too and then you will know what you need to do change your nation you have to take hard and bitter and radical approach good night from me now bye

 

[sbh02]

people are not fools ethy know over a period of time who is taking them for a ride in name of caste and religion and who is performing but is always given a bad name .... honest and good works speaks for itself and thats NaMo's & BJP's biggest strength no matter how much paid media or opposition scream you can not convince a common voter who has seen it all day in and day out so perceptions do not matter when facts are in front of your eyes and SP and BSP and congress are clearlly corrupt and appeasing Dalots and muslims by giving them hajj subsidies and other freebies and penssions but doing nothing in terms of providing there youth long term employent and skill develpment initiatives and improoving there Modern eductional initaiatives and bringing them to mainstream

while BJP is doing and promissing just the opposite and showing the work in all its ruled states and Dalits and muslism living in BJP ruled states are the biggest ambassadors of BJP in UP elections which turned the tide in BJP favour by influencing non BJP voter to come to BJP fold for once and then there are young voters who see NaMo as a dynamic non corruptible leader changing india and fighting the corrupt system with a bale team so all want to chip in wit there contribution and do not want to be left out hence the support

but pakistanies just hate India and NaMo so so much due to propaganda in there media without knowuing the fact that most of this media propoganda in india was done by congress led media for there own power securing gioals and now look where congress is and why are they here do pakistanies not feeling the crunth and birnt of corruption themselfs if indians have thrown out corrput congressies why are pakistanies still stuckk with corrupt congressi propogandda ?

think about it too and then you will know what you need to do change your nation you have to take hard and bitter and radical approach good night from me now bye

So many words, such little substance, it's a shame.

Can you please tell me what campaign promises Modi has kept since getting into power?

He is popular because he appeals to the popular anti-Muslim sentiments in Hindus.

 

[GURU DUTT]

So many words, such little substance, it's a shame.

Can you please tell me what campaign promises Modi has kept since getting into power?

He is popular because he appeals to the popular anti-Muslim sentiments in Hindus.

you dint get it cause you dont want to get the bitter and hard facts well not my problem good for us in a way from now on try to ignore me as much as possible

 

[sbh02]

you dint get it cause you dont want to get the bitter and hard facts well not my problem good for us in a way from now on try to ignore me as much as possible

What hard facts?

You still haven't listed the campaign promises that the Modi sarkar has fulfilled so far. Waiting for it.

 

[Mutakalim]

Muslim
Pakistani
Dont care about anything else.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

So many words, such little substance, it's a shame.

Can you please tell me what campaign promises Modi has kept since getting into power?

He is popular because he appeals to the popular anti-Muslim sentiments in Hindus.

You are wasting your time with Bhakts. They will say one thing but will do opposite just like their Hinduvata leadership who are astute enough to continue projecting India as a democratic state but in practice, it is acting as a Hindu nation state so whenever you hear this claim of Indian first from bhakts then always read it as Hindu first to save yourself from confusions. BJP and Hindu nationalist parties have one agenda which is " Indianization/Hindunization of Muslims in India"

Narendra Modi said that he was born a Hindu, he is a nationalist, so he is a Hindu Nationalist! very simple lol His Party President Rajnath Singh also buttressed the point and took it further to say that Muslims are Muslim nationalists, Christians are Christian Nationalists. So one has a variety of nationalisms to choose from

 

[ayesha.a]

Hey I am not here to make you dislike India if you love India so much and consider it perfect by sitting in United state .

Now now, here you are simply making up false dichotomies. I never claimed India is perfect - explaining some things about India, maybe even defending some particular aspect of India, does not mean that I claim India is perfect.

I personally never claimed that we don't have any issues in Pakistan or its perfect land. We recognise the social ills in our society and we recognise that we need to adopt more tolerance and acceptance of others.

There you go!!! See, that wasn't so difficult, was it? That's precisely what I feel about India; and I am willing to bet, that's what anybody feels about her country.

You should realize that other people are also capable of this simple understanding, of being able to recognize their society's faults, and probably don't think their country/society is perfect.

Maybe it's the nature of this forum that makes people unable to recognize that - any dialogue here is usually Indian's and Pakistanis insulting the other country and defending theirs, and so everybody thinks that the other side can't recognize their faults.

Take a step back, and forget about the trolling that goes on here, and you will realize that Indians don't consider their country to be perfect, nor does any reasonable adult think so about her or his country.

You can glorify India after living in USA but I have met those Indian Muslims who suffered in the hand of Hindu extremist and their point of views is totally different . You should be living in areas where Muslims are minority or where you have rulers like yogi to get the taste of hate and abuse.

Don't you think I know and have met a LOT more Indian Muslims than you? Anyway, personal anecdotes are not really helpful when we want to judge a very large sample set, in this case that of some 180 million + people.


What is your point anyway? That India has communal tensions? You are right. That there is anti-Muslim sentiment in India? You are right. That Muslims have suffered at the hands of Hindu extremists? Again, you are right. The only question is whether a large majority (or even a significant minority) of Indians are Hindu extremists. There, I beg to differ.

What you are saying is that India have secular laws but by nature it's hindutva. Pakistan doesn't have secular laws and by nature is islamist. Now why India needed secular constitution? To become acceptable to huge numbers of non-hindus, tribals, sikhs in punjab, muslims in kashmir, christians in Nagaland etc

After all reason Indians give to hold on IoK is their secularism. That is very important factor. Because you see in Pakistan constitution shias are like any other sunni muslim, they have been head of states etc But in reality there are extremist groups which target shias. The reason Pakistan hypocrite state declared ahmadi non-muslilms while shias, ismaelies etc are muslims like sunnis. Is because unlike shias, ahmadis make minuscule population of Pakistan and they don't make majority anywhere.

If G-B was ahmadi majority province then Bhutto wouldn't have dared to alienate them even with mullahs pressure.

I didn't say that India is "hindutva" by nature. I gave many examples (in a post previous to the one you quoted) where non Hindu religions have special rights, but more importantly, the fact that everyody can practice and profess their religious beliefs. That underlined part is a crucial difference. The fact that Muslims are free to proclaim publically that Allah is the only God - from loudspeakers, in cities and towns and villages - do you think that would be possible in a non-secular society? The fact that Muslims (or other religions) can convert others to their religion non coercively - do you think that would be possible in a non secular country?

Not just by law, in practice too, I would wager that India a pretty secular country and society - without of course, denying that there is a lot of Hindu fundamentalism present. And yes, banning cow slaughter etc is an imposition of Hindu values on non Hindus, and it is a violation of secularism. And yes, Hindu extremists have recently harassed Muslims in many ways, I am not denying any of that. It is my hope that India becomes more secular in future.

 

[Kabira]

I didn't say that India is "hindutva" by nature. I gave many examples (in a post previous to the one you quoted) where non Hindu religions have special rights, but more importantly, the fact that everyody can practice and profess their religious beliefs. That underlined part is a crucial difference. The fact that Muslims are free to proclaim publically that Allah is the only God - from loudspeakers, in cities and towns and villages - do you think that would be possible in a non-secular society? The fact that Muslims (or other religions) can convert others to their religion non coercively - do you think that would be possible in a non secular country?

Not just by law, in practice too, I would wager that India a pretty secular country and society - without of course, denying that there is a lot of Hindu fundamentalism present. And yes, banning cow slaughter etc is an imposition of Hindu values on non Hindus, and it is a violation of secularism. And yes, Hindu extremists have recently harassed Muslims in many ways, I am not denying any of that. It is my hope that India becomes more secular in future.

Muslims no longer are allowed to eat red meat in "secular" nation. In Pakistan non-muslims can drink and sell alcohol. This secular drama was played to become acceptable to non-hindu majority states in punjab, kashmir, naga land, tribals etc

 

[ayesha.a]

@Proudpakistaniguy : Has Abdul Kalam ever declared himself to be an atheist? Javed Akhtar and Tasleema Nasreen have, in no uncertain terms.

Muslims no longer are allowed to eat red meat in "secular" nation. In Pakistan non-muslims can drink and sell alcohol. This secular drama was played to become acceptable to non-hindu majority states in punjab, kashmir, naga land, tribals etc

I responded to this earlier. There are many states where beef is legal. There are many states where it is illegal. But that applies to everybody, not Muslims alone. As I said, that is against the spirit of secularism, but that didn't begin recently - even the 1857 mutiny against the British was sparked off by this aspect. (All other red mean is legal everywhere, and mutton is the most preferred red meat among Muslims.)

Yes, that's one law that many states have that should not be in a secular country. It's genesis is purely religious. But it is applicable to everybody.

In Pakistan, can Christians convert Muslims into Christianity by preaching? Can Muslims convert non Muslims? Does the law apply equally? That's where the question of the state enabling one religion comes into play.

I really don't want to turn this into an Ind-Pak debate, no good ever comes of it.

 

[sbh02]

I didn't say that India is "hindutva" by nature. I gave many examples (in a post previous to the one you quoted) where non Hindu religions have special rights, but more importantly, the fact that everyody can practice and profess their religious beliefs.

The thing is, that the few special privileges given to non-Hindu minorities are offsetted by the state/institutionalized discrimination against them.

That underlined part is a crucial difference. The fact that Muslims are free to proclaim publically that Allah is the only God - from loudspeakers, in cities and towns and villages - do you think that would be possible in a non-secular society?

Sure, Hindus do it in Sindh too; Christians do it in Punjab too in Pakistan.

The fact that Muslims (or other religions) can convert others to their religion non coercively - do you think that would be possible in a non secular country?

Christian missionaries come here too, and spread the word of Jesus.

@ayesha.a

Some questions I asked other Indian members here, but they failed to respond:

a) Can you tell me one Indian city where there aren't segregated neighborhoods of Hindus and Muslims, where they co-exist peacefully? In Pakistan, people regardless of religion co-exist peacefully: Muslims with Christians in Punjab, Muslims and Hindus in Sindh. In fact, in some regions of Sindh (Tharparker, Nagarparker, Mithi etc); Hindus are the majority, Muslims are the minority; and they live together in the same neighborhoods, peacefully; and celebrate each other's holy days.

b) Can you tell me why Modi won the UP elections, when he hasn't been able to deliver on his campaign promises, when demonetization has been an absymal failure?

c) Can you tell me why Love Jihad, Ghar Waapsi, Beef ban are so popular amongst the majority, when you say they aren't against Muslims? Can you tell me why there is a focus on Triple Talaq and those issues, when there are far more serious issues in Hindutva/Hinduism that no one wants addressing?

Do you know that India is the fourth worst country in the world for religious intolerance/unrest/hostilities and religious violence, only bettering Syria, Iraq and Nigeria?

https://qz.com/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

Please watch this enlightening debate on the beef ban, and the hypocrisy of the beef ban exposed. The beef ban has targeted poor Muslims and Dalits.

[video]

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Now now, here you are simply making up false dichotomies. I never claimed India is perfect - explaining some things about India, maybe even defending some particular aspect of India, does not mean that I claim India is perfect.



There you go!!! See, that wasn't so difficult, was it? That's precisely what I feel about India; and I am willing to bet, that's what anybody feels about her country.

You should realize that other people are also capable of this simple understanding, of being able to recognize their society's faults, and probably don't think their country/society is perfect.

Maybe it's the nature of this forum that makes people unable to recognize that - any dialogue here is usually Indian's and Pakistanis insulting the other country and defending theirs, and so everybody thinks that the other side can't recognize their faults.

Take a step back, and forget about the trolling that goes on here, and you will realize that Indians don't consider their country to be perfect, nor does any reasonable adult think so about her or his country.



Don't you think I know and have met a LOT more Indian Muslims than you? Anyway, personal anecdotes are not really helpful when we want to judge a very large sample set, in this case that of some 180 million + people.


What is your point anyway? That India has communal tensions? You are right. That there is anti-Muslim sentiment in India? You are right. That Muslims have suffered at the hands of Hindu extremists? Again, you are right. The only question is whether a large majority (or even a significant minority) of Indians are Hindu extremists. There, I beg to differ.



I didn't say that India is "hindutva" by nature. I gave many examples (in a post previous to the one you quoted) where non Hindu religions have special rights, but more importantly, the fact that everyody can practice and profess their religious beliefs. That underlined part is a crucial difference. The fact that Muslims are free to proclaim publically that Allah is the only God - from loudspeakers, in cities and towns and villages - do you think that would be possible in a non-secular society? The fact that Muslims (or other religions) can convert others to their religion non coercively - do you think that would be possible in a non secular country?

Not just by law, in practice too, I would wager that India a pretty secular country and society - without of course, denying that there is a lot of Hindu fundamentalism present. And yes, banning cow slaughter etc is an imposition of Hindu values on non Hindus, and it is a violation of secularism. And yes, Hindu extremists have recently harassed Muslims in many ways, I am not denying any of that. It is my hope that India becomes more secular in future.

Its not just about cow slaughter. There are some very serious attempts by Hindu nationalists in Government to erase the Islamic idenity of Muslims in India to replace it with Hindu identity but well i dont want to go in circular debate but you did not tell anything about how you rank your identity and you hold Indian or American nationality?

 

[24 Hours]

1. Bangladeshi
2. Asian
3. Homo Sapien
4. Homo
5. Hominidae
6. Primate
7. Mammal
8. Chordate
9. Animal

 

[Bilawal Bhutto]

Muslim
Pakistani
Man
Pakhtun
Girls hitter