How Would A War between Russia and NATO Play Out?

[500]

Even the spectacularly expensive Israeli Iron Dome (paid for with American taxpayer dollars) performed poorly against cheap unguided Hamas rockets, made out of trash they find on the floor and costing less than $100 a rocket.

Everything wrong here.

1) Nothing expensive about the Iron Dome. Its missiles are cheaper than most of the aid defense system missiles.
2) Performance was astonishing. Not a SINGLE person was killed in protected towns out of thousands rockets fired at dense populated areas. Not a SINGLE rocket passed through in Tel Aviv out of over 100 fired.
3) Rockets used by Hamas were not made "out of trash", but factory made Grads, WS-1E, Fajar-5, Uragan, WS-1 with high supersonic speeds.

Note that Iron Dome detects sources of fire with high accuracy. And in real war Israel would simply MLRS them. Finishing it it two days.

Compare that to advanced hypersonic missiles (not rockets) that can maneuver at hypersonic speeds, with multiple BMD countermeasures and MIRV warheads. (Soon to be HGV warheads).

Iron Dome intercepted 4-5 Mach WS-1 rockets, which are hypersonic speeds. Maneuvering at such speed is nonsense.

 

[Falcon29]

Everything wrong here.

1) Nothing expensive about the Iron Dome. Its missiles are cheaper than most of the aid defense system missiles.
2) Performance was astonishing. Not a SINGLE person was killed in protected towns out of thousands rockets fired at dense populated areas. Not a SINGLE rocket passed through in Tel Aviv out of over 100 fired.
3) Rockets used by Hamas were not made "out of trash", but factory made Grads, WS-1E, Fajar-5, Uragan, WS-1 with high supersonic speeds.

Note that Iron Dome detects sources of fire with high accuracy. And in real war Israel would simply MLRS them. Finishing it it two days.


Iron Dome intercepted 4-5 Mach WS-1 rockets, which are hypersonic speeds. Maneuvering at such speed is nonsense.

Supersonic? Are you out of your mind? Nothing Hamas has is supersonic. Hamas has no WS1, it has very few of those Syrian like rockets which they also produce in Gaza. Most of the projectiles used in retaliation are homemade rockets. Again, I'm quoting your own military. Of course keep in mind viewers it can be exaggerated to try justifying siege on Gaza. And their rockets rarely use any warheads.

Nearly all Gaza rockets self-made: Israeli army - Yahoo News

Your Defense Minister says each missile costs 100k usd:
...

adding that every interception of an incoming rocket by Israel’s Iron Dome missile defense system cost $100,000.

“From an economic point of view it’s worth it, weighed against the potential damage” of a rocket strike, he said. “But it’s still $100,000 for every interception.”

Gaza war cost $2.5 billion, Ya'alon says | The Times of Israel

.......

And yes there were hits:

.........

Their rockets fired at tel Aviv aren't advanced at all either.

 

[500]

Supersonic? Are you out of your mind? Nothing Hamas has is supersonic.

You are a retarded kid. Ballistic missiles/rockets have direct range/speed connection. You cant launch a rocket at dozens kms without breaching supersonic speed. Simple Grad with 20 km range has over 2 Mach speed. Modified Grad aka WS-1E with 40 km range have some 3 Mach speed. 100 km range WS-1 have 4.2 mach speed, 180 km range WS-1E have 5.2 Mach speed.

Hamas has no WS1, it has very few Syrian made rockets.

They have. They called them R-160.

Most of the projectiles used in retaliation are homemade rockets. Again, I'm quoting your own military. Of course keep in mind viewers it can be exaggerated to try justifying siege on Gaza.

Nearly all Gaza rockets self-made: Israeli army - Yahoo News

Unnamed official. If rockets launched at Tel Aviv were made in Gaza Hamas would have many hundreds of them.

“From an economic point of view it’s worth it, weighed against the potential damage” of a rocket strike, he said. “But it’s still $100,000 for every interception.”

Costs include not only an interceptor, but procurement and operational costs.

Gaza war cost $2.5 billion, Ya'alon says | The Times of Israel

The main reason for high cost of war was that Israel used super expensive smart bombs and rockets. Although Israel had full right to employ counter battery fire: cheap artillery at sources of fire.

During the war there were 700 interceptions thats only 70 mln. Thus Iron Dome cost was less than 3% of total war cost. But it prevented major damages.

And yes there were hits:

Thats just some fire that regularly occurs.

Thats Ashkelon not Tel Aviv.

 

[Falcon29]

You are a retarded kid. Ballistic missiles/rockets have direct range/speed connection. You cant launch a rocket at dozens kms without breaching supersonic speed. Simple Grad with 20 km range has over 2 Mach speed. Modified Grad aka WS-1E with 40 km range have some 3 Mach speed. 100 km range WS-1 have 4.2 mach speed, 180 km range WS-1E have 5.2 Mach speed.

Majority of their weapons are homemade and you want to compare them to supersonic cruise missiles, lol.

They have. They called them R-160.

And I know that, they're nothing near Chinese variant or Turkish MLRS.

Unnamed official. If rockets launched at Tel Aviv were made in Gaza Hamas would have many hundreds of them.

They have a few hundred which were produced in Gaza. They are simple 200mm rockets. All Israeli military agrees on this and there is evidence for them.

Costs include not only an interceptor, but procurement and operational costs.

Which is expensive.

The main reason for high cost of war was that Israel used super expensive smart bombs and rockets. Although Israel had full right to employ counter battery fire: cheap artillery at sources of fire.

Iron Dome doesn't cost Israel much because the US pays for everything. Already billions gone into it from US tax payers. Israel doesn't fire at sources of fire. It uses artillery to maim and murder:

...........
We can see a live video of this 'very accurate' bombardment which only took place during the ground invasion.

..........

Maybe you can teach the US military how to be 'very accurate' with 7,500 high explosive shells in one neighborhood in less than a day.

Here is what Pentagon officials had to say about it:

...............
According to this senior U.S. officer, who had access to the July 21 Pentagon summary of the previous 24 hours of Israeli operations, the internal report showed that 11 Israeli artillery battalions —a minimum of 258 artillery pieces in all, according to this officer’s estimate — had pumped at least 7,000 high explosive shells into the Gaza neighborhood, which included a barrage of some 4,800 shells during the seven-hour period marking the height of the operation. Senior U.S. officers were stunned by the report

Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”


...............
Official Pentagon report reveals U.S military "shocked" by Israel's conduct in Shujaiyya

Thats just some fire that regularly occurs.


Thats Ashkelon not Tel Aviv.

Sure....lol

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Everything wrong here.

1) Nothing expensive about the Iron Dome. Its missiles are cheaper than most of the aid defense system missiles.
2) Performance was astonishing. Not a SINGLE person was killed in protected towns out of thousands rockets fired at dense populated areas. Not a SINGLE rocket passed through in Tel Aviv out of over 100 fired.
3) Rockets used by Hamas were not made "out of trash", but factory made Grads, WS-1E, Fajar-5, Uragan, WS-1 with high supersonic speeds.

Note that Iron Dome detects sources of fire with high accuracy. And in real war Israel would simply MLRS them. Finishing it it two days.

That's what the Israeli Army is saying in the international media:

Nearly all Gaza rockets self-made: Israeli army - Yahoo News

Iron Dome will never be more cost effective compared to Hamas rockets, this is simple maths.

You could make some semantic argument, incorporating the cost of the possible damage, but that's not the comparison.

Note that Iron Dome detects sources of fire with high accuracy. And in real war Israel would simply MLRS them. Finishing it it two days.

So you think the conflict between Israel and Gaza is not a "real war"?

I think @Hazzy997 will agree with you there.

 

[Falcon29]

That's what the Israeli Army is saying in the international media:



Iron Dome will never be more cost effective compared to Hamas rockets, this is simple maths.

You could make some semantic argument, incorporating the cost of the possible damage, but that's not the comparison.



So you think the conflict between Israel and Gaza is not a "real war"?

I think @Hazzy997 will agree with you there.

Of course it isn't a real war. It's maiming and murdering people in an open air prison. Even one of their best allies Cameroon called Gaza an open air prison. They would do the same thing in the West Bank if there was a rebellion.

 

[500]

Majority of their weapons are homemade and you want to compare them to supersonic cruise missiles, lol.

I repeat: you cant launch a ballistic target at dozens kms without breaching sound barrier. The fastest cruise missile in the world has about 2.5 Mach speed, while rockets launched at Tel Aviv traveled at 4 Mach speed.

We can see a live video of this 'very accurate' bombardment which only took place during the ground invasion.

Cant see anything in these closeup videos. Here is real shelling:

That's what the Israeli Army is saying in the international media:

No thats anonymous source.

Iron Dome will never be more cost effective compared to Hamas rockets, this is simple maths.

Nonsense. Ceramic west costs thousands of dollars, buller costs several cents.

Iron Dome prevented major damage and casualties with less than 3% of total war cost.

So you think the conflict between Israel and Gaza is not a "real war"?

Of course not. In real war no one will destroy tin houses with half million $ missiles, sending 5 warning calls and small warning missile.

For example during offensive 1 Soviet division fires 200,000 artillery shells in 1 day. Thats real war.

 

[thesolar65]

This is rather lame mate .. you do realise that don't you :-|

I do comment sanely, but sometimes my right brain takes over my left one and I do comment as if I have to comment....so this..

 

[Falcon29]

Cant see anything in these closeup videos. Here is real shelling:

Of course we can't.
..........

We can see a live video of this 'very accurate' bombardment which only took place during the ground invasion.

..........

Maybe you can teach the US military how to be 'very accurate' with 7,500 high explosive shells in one neighborhood in less than a day.

Here is what Pentagon officials had to say about it:

...............
According to this senior U.S. officer, who had access to the July 21 Pentagon summary of the previous 24 hours of Israeli operations, the internal report showed that 11 Israeli artillery battalions —a minimum of 258 artillery pieces in all, according to this officer’s estimate — had pumped at least 7,000 high explosive shells into the Gaza neighborhood, which included a barrage of some 4,800 shells during the seven-hour period marking the height of the operation. Senior U.S. officers were stunned by the report

Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”


...............
Official Pentagon report reveals U.S military "shocked" by Israel's conduct in Shujaiyya

 

[500]

Of course we can't.
..........

We can see a live video of this 'very accurate' bombardment which only took place during the ground invasion.

I dont see anything is this close up. Just smoke. Israel warned to evacuate Shujaiya 5 days before the offensive. This warning caused lots of casualties to Israeli side. But Hamas urged people to stay and ignore the warnings (although hamas themselves hided like rats).

This is the real shelling:

Show me something like that in Gaza. You cant. There are zillions of reporters in Gaza but no one could film. There were even several live cameras on high buildings. And they could not film anything as well.

Here is what Pentagon officials had to say about it:

Again anonymous. US used illegal incendiary rounds in Fallujah so these anonymous clowns should shut up.

 

[Falcon29]

500, you just completely derailed the thread because someone said the Iron Dome is expensive. And I'm not going to respond to you. Everything you said above you said in the sticky thread for Gaza and I already responded to all of it. People can check that thread for debate material.

Keep this thread on topic.

 

[gau8av]

I don't think a conventional war against Russia will be easy for NATO because they have a technological edge military hardware wise, if anything, it'll result in a stalemate with heavy losses both sides but NATO have deeper pockets so they won't feel the financial pain as much as Russia.

but if the current geopolitical situation was to be considered, NATO will be the aggressors in Ukraine and will be lured in by clever ground forces maneuvering into "cauldrons" (encirclement) as the Ruskies like to call them, and burn



wars aren't fought on paper, hope it's not happening but if it does, ...the US will never have seen such an enemy force as they will should they do something stupid and get in a war with Russia.

 

[Ahmed Jo]

If it were to happen, all of us average people die whilst our rich hide away. I really wish humanity could unite and destroy wealth disparity and work together on fucking off to space.

commie.

 

[timetravel]

Russia would be supported by India and China in a war with NATO.

Reasons two : India and Russia best friends. Secondly if Russia goes down to NATO, next its turn of China and India in few years.

IT would the end of NATO, in case of a conventional war with Russia/China/India.

NATO doesn't have it in them to take down Russia.

The best NATO can achieve is using Nukes against Russia, and destroy the world and be destroyed. Conventionally, NATO has no chance.

The guys who couldn't defeat bearded guys in Afghanistan would defeat Russia.

Someone in NATO must be suicidal, if he thinks of taking on Russia in a conventional war.

 

[Falcon29]

Russia would be supported by India and China in a war with NATO.

Reasons two : India and Russia best friends. Secondly if Russia goes down to NATO, next its turn of China and India in few years.

IT would the end of NATO, in case of a conventional war with Russia/China/India.

NATO doesn't have it in them to take down Russia.

The best NATO can achieve is using Nukes against Russia, and destroy the world and be destroyed. Conventionally, NATO has no chance.

The guys who couldn't defeat bearded guys in Afghanistan would defeat Russia.

Someone in NATO must be suicidal, if he thinks of taking on Russia in a conventional war.

Do you really think India can support Russia? In what way? But, I agree with you. They can't beat tribesmen in Afghanistan because they have no cause. It is an evil cause to murder women/children for drug trade.