How should Pakistan tackle S400 acquisition by India? The Drone Swarm Technology....

[Asian.Century]

Interesting Analysis on S-4oo

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

if civilian companies can do that in usa. so can Pakistan air force. these experiemnts and artificial intelligence on Drones is the way to go. with air to surface missions done with way can be a very good asset.

experiments like these are needed in PAF. i know chinese air force already has drone swarms and they control AI market after israel in the world.

 

[CriticalThought]

if civilian companies can do that in usa. so can Pakistan air force. these experiemnts and artificial intelligence on Drones is the way to go. with surface to air missions done with way can be a very good asset.

experiments like these are needed in PAF. i know chinese air force already has drone swarms and they control AI market after israel in the world.

Very good thinking. This is definitely the future of warfare.

But there is a very important threat due to S-400: a degraded reaction time. While Indian attack from deep within Indian territory is under way, instead of responding to the actual threat, you are restricted to first eliminating the air defence before your cruise/ballistic missiles and aircraft can attack.

In a cold start type scenario, the side that deals more blows in lesser time will be more successful.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Very good thinking. This is definitely the future of warfare.

But there is a very important threat due to S-400: a degraded reaction time. While Indian attack from deep within Indian territory is under way, instead of responding to the actual threat, you are restricted to first eliminating the air defence before your cruise/ballistic missiles and aircraft can attack.

In a cold start type scenario, the side that deals more blows in lesser time will be more successful.

S-400 has a limitation on range when it comes to highly manuverable missiles like Babur II and Tomawahk. engagement range is just 2-3 KM for agile tarrain huggign missiles even though it can monitor them for way longer distances it can just engage them after they reach 2-3 km within range. for this purpose S-400 will have a new system integrated into it after 2022.

s-400 has alot of limitations it is a defensive weapon when used for defence its best in its kind. but if u expose it to enemy by putting it in harms way. if only 1 compoentn of the layered system fails the whole system fails. thats where the limitation is and that is what China, USA, israel turkey and pakistan are developing tactics for. thats the reason they purchasing the system as well.

 

[CriticalThought]

S-400 has a limitation on range when it comes to highly manuverable missiles like Babur II and Tomawahk. engagement range is just 2-3 KM for agile tarrain huggign missiles even though it can monitor them for way longer distances it can just engage them after they reach 2-3 km within range. for this purpose S-400 will have a new system integrated into it after 2022.

s-400 has alot of limitations it is a defensive weapon when used for defence its best in its kind. but if u expose it to enemy by putting it in harms way. if only 1 compoentn of the layered system fails the whole system fails. thats where the limitation is and that is what China, USA, israel turkey and pakistan are developing tactics for. thats the reason they purchasing the system as well.

Can you please provide a reference for the performance parameters quoted above?

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Can you please provide a reference for the performance parameters quoted above?

it was all over the news, when usa fired swarms of tomahawks at syrians targets a few months back, not even a single towmahawk was engaged by s400 while it did take down other missiles. it was quoted since tomahawk is very small in size and they were traveling at 10 meters above ground. also there was an article in indian news paper a few weeks back that quoted S-400s anti cruise missile enagement range to be with in 2-3 km only. also it can't engage targets traveling more than 5 times the speed of sound. i'll look for the source and paste it here.

Can you please provide a reference for the performance parameters quoted above?

Wikipedia page suggests s-400 can intercept cruise missiles at 40 km range low flying ones. but i read analysis after syrian strikes that it was less than 5 km for missiles like tomahawk and babur II because of their radar cross section and variable speed, high maneuverability

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

Russian and Western military analysts, however, say that the system was positioned too far away from the Shayrat air base to be effective against the April 7 strike, which used cruise missiles that skim the earth at about five meters off the ground, fly at subsonic speed, and follow their own flight paths.

"All this talk that we have secured the whole of Syrian airspace is artistic whistling," said Pavel Felgengauer, a Moscow-based military analyst, and suggested this boasting was intended to boost the sale of arms showcased in Syria.

"They certainly can't [intercept cruise missiles] at that distance from their location. At the very most, they can defend the nearest approach of the base where they are located," he said.

The S-400 air-defense systems are located at Russia's air base at Latakia and its naval base at Tartus. The strike, which hit the Shayrat air base near Homs more than 75 kilometers away from the city of Tartus and more than 120 kilometers from Latakia, meant the American cruise missiles were safely out of the Russian air-defense system's effective range for cruise missiles, he said. "You can more or less defend a perimeter of about 40 kilometers."

Justin Bronk, a defense analyst at the London-based think tank Royal United Services Institute, agreed, saying that despite the sophistication of the S-400’s radar -- which covers up to 400 kilometers at higher altitudes -- the system would encounter problemswith targets at low altitudes farther away. "Any rough terrain between the radar and the flight path of the cruise missiles will prevent that system, in this case at Latakia and Tartus, engaging," said Bronk.

"Also, while the S-400 is advertised as having an anti-cruise missile capability, it is more geared toward ballistic missiles coming in from very high angles, very quickly, and other tactical aircraft," he said. "It's more geared toward those kinds of targets than subsonic, land-skimming missiles."

full article here: there is difference of opnion however as always. but i share the view after a bunch of resreach that effective range of S-400 to take out babur II and other sophisticated cruises missiles that have terrain hugging ablity of less than 10 meters can't be intercepted and if so can only be intercepted within 2 to 3 km range by S-400.

full article here :
https://www.rferl.org/a/weher-was-the-s-300-s-400-missile-defense-systems/28417014.html

the russians prefer to use Pantsirs for anti cruise missile operations and that has a range of 20 KM for aircraft and 10 km for low flying cruise missiles.


S400 has 4 different missiles for different purposes , the longest ranged is called 40N6E with 400Km range to target high flying high speed objects like aircraft or ballistic missiles maximum altitutde it can engage is 30 KM. this is geared against ballistic missles or anything flying at highest in atmosphere or missiles in terminal face re-entry into earth's atmosphere.

9M96E is the missile geared towards low flying objects and these are the most accurate and matured missiles of all. and also used on S-300 PMU missile system. these have max range of 40KM against aircraft and missiles in conventional flying altitude. and 20 km or less for low altitude signatures which dont change paths.

 

[randomradio]

S-400 has a limitation on range when it comes to highly manuverable missiles like Babur II and Tomawahk. engagement range is just 2-3 KM for agile tarrain huggign missiles even though it can monitor them for way longer distances it can just engage them after they reach 2-3 km within range.

There's no truth to that.

it was all over the news, when usa fired swarms of tomahawks at syrians targets a few months back, not even a single towmahawk was engaged by s400 while it did take down other missiles.

No NATO missiles or aircraft have ever been intercepted by the S-400. It's because of a political decision.

If NATO attacks Syrian forces, then Russia cannot intervene. And in exchange, NATO doesn't attack Russian forces while they bomb NATO allies on the ground, aka the rebels.

In reality, the S-400 is capable of engaging and defeating every one of those Tomahawks fired at Syria, as long as they were within range.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

There's no truth to that.



No NATO missiles or aircraft have ever been intercepted by the S-400. It's because of a political decision.

If NATO attacks Syrian forces, then Russia cannot intervene. And in exchange, NATO doesn't attack Russian forces while they bomb NATO allies on the ground, aka the rebels.

In reality, the S-400 is capable of engaging and defeating every one of those Tomahawks fired at Syria, as long as they were within range.

they were fired 75 KM near S-400 sight. 75 Kilometers not within range?

There's no truth to that.



No NATO missiles or aircraft have ever been intercepted by the S-400. It's because of a political decision.

If NATO attacks Syrian forces, then Russia cannot intervene. And in exchange, NATO doesn't attack Russian forces while they bomb NATO allies on the ground, aka the rebels.

In reality, the S-400 is capable of engaging and defeating every one of those Tomahawks fired at Syria, as long as they were within range.

The S-400 air-defense systems are located at Russia's air base at Latakia and its naval base at Tartus. The strike, which hit the Shayrat air base near Homs more than 75 kilometers away from the city of Tartus and more than 120 kilometers from Latakia, meant the American cruise missiles were safely out of the Russian air-defense system's effective range for cruise missiles, he said. "You can more or less defend a perimeter of about 40 kilometers."

There's no truth to that.



No NATO missiles or aircraft have ever been intercepted by the S-400. It's because of a political decision.

If NATO attacks Syrian forces, then Russia cannot intervene. And in exchange, NATO doesn't attack Russian forces while they bomb NATO allies on the ground, aka the rebels.

In reality, the S-400 is capable of engaging and defeating every one of those Tomahawks fired at Syria, as long as they were within range.

so political reason was only at tomahawk cruises missiles while they destroyed anti radiation and ballistic missiles from frigates mid air before they entered even syrian waters? the thing is they could not engage low flying and carefully maneuvered missiles. "RADAR HORIZON" is what limits this system like any other system.

this is the same reason S400 can't be very effective against MIRV missiles cuz they spread out warheads in unpredictable fashion. with latest MIRV warheads able to maneuver a few degrees at that high speed. hence the need for s500 was there and this is what russian technicians and engineers are working at. Chinese and american engineers are doing the same cuz hyper sonic missiles are a reality and a big threat no anti missile system can defend against yet. hence s500 and newer systems are being worked upon since 2013.
but for ballistic missiles and re-entry missiles radar has to look up and there is no curvature involved it can look at track easily. while on earth there are so so many factors involved. biggest being curvature of earth and radar cross sections.


after russian S400 failed to engage those targets. twitter was blown with russian and chinese tweets about how safe Moscow is ? with russians wondering is S400 also protecting moscow and st perters berg? they were really worried.

Fact of the matter ironically is, earth is not Flat, and it has a curvature. with those kinds of ranges u loose ability to detect low flying objects and more so if the have smaller cross -section on radar. so the ability is reduced for low flying missiles of that type.

 

[CriticalThought]

it was all over the news, when usa fired swarms of tomahawks at syrians targets a few months back, not even a single towmahawk was engaged by s400 while it did take down other missiles. it was quoted since tomahawk is very small in size and they were traveling at 10 meters above ground. also there was an article in indian news paper a few weeks back that quoted S-400s anti cruise missile enagement range to be with in 2-3 km only. also it can't engage targets traveling more than 5 times the speed of sound. i'll look for the source and paste it here.


Wikipedia page suggests s-400 can intercept cruise missiles at 40 km range low flying ones. but i read analysis after syrian strikes that it was less than 5 km for missiles like tomahawk and babur II because of their radar cross section and variable speed, high maneuverability

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

Russian and Western military analysts, however, say that the system was positioned too far away from the Shayrat air base to be effective against the April 7 strike, which used cruise missiles that skim the earth at about five meters off the ground, fly at subsonic speed, and follow their own flight paths.

"All this talk that we have secured the whole of Syrian airspace is artistic whistling," said Pavel Felgengauer, a Moscow-based military analyst, and suggested this boasting was intended to boost the sale of arms showcased in Syria.

"They certainly can't [intercept cruise missiles] at that distance from their location. At the very most, they can defend the nearest approach of the base where they are located," he said.

The S-400 air-defense systems are located at Russia's air base at Latakia and its naval base at Tartus. The strike, which hit the Shayrat air base near Homs more than 75 kilometers away from the city of Tartus and more than 120 kilometers from Latakia, meant the American cruise missiles were safely out of the Russian air-defense system's effective range for cruise missiles, he said. "You can more or less defend a perimeter of about 40 kilometers."

Justin Bronk, a defense analyst at the London-based think tank Royal United Services Institute, agreed, saying that despite the sophistication of the S-400’s radar -- which covers up to 400 kilometers at higher altitudes -- the system would encounter problemswith targets at low altitudes farther away. "Any rough terrain between the radar and the flight path of the cruise missiles will prevent that system, in this case at Latakia and Tartus, engaging," said Bronk.

"Also, while the S-400 is advertised as having an anti-cruise missile capability, it is more geared toward ballistic missiles coming in from very high angles, very quickly, and other tactical aircraft," he said. "It's more geared toward those kinds of targets than subsonic, land-skimming missiles."

full article here: there is difference of opnion however as always. but i share the view after a bunch of resreach that effective range of S-400 to take out babur II and other sophisticated cruises missiles that have terrain hugging ablity of less than 10 meters can't be intercepted and if so can only be intercepted within 2 to 3 km range by S-400.

full article here :
https://www.rferl.org/a/weher-was-the-s-300-s-400-missile-defense-systems/28417014.html

the russians prefer to use Pantsirs for anti cruise missile operations and that has a range of 20 KM for aircraft and 10 km for low flying cruise missiles.


S400 has 4 different missiles for different purposes , the longest ranged is called 40N6E with 400Km range to target high flying high speed objects like aircraft or ballistic missiles maximum altitutde it can engage is 30 KM. this is geared against ballistic missles or anything flying at highest in atmosphere or missiles in terminal face re-entry into earth's atmosphere.

9M96E is the missile geared towards low flying objects and these are the most accurate and matured missiles of all. and also used on S-300 PMU missile system. these have max range of 40KM against aircraft and missiles in conventional flying altitude. and 20 km or less for low altitude signatures which dont change paths.

You are mixing up too many things.

As far as Syria is concerned, there are two aspects: security of Russian forces, and security of Syrian assets. In each case, Russia has chosen to incrementally increase the level of air defence.

Even before the famous attack, there were pictures shared showing blackened out spots on a Russian bass. This was in Obama's time. That is when Russia brought in S-400, A-100, and SU-35. Ever since this development, no direct attacks on Russian assets have been successful. This is the reason why respect for S-400 has increased manyfold all over the world.

The Syrians have been requesting S-300 for s long time. But there was an explicit understanding between Russia and Israel to not supply this system. This changed when an Israeli EW attack caused Syrian air defence to down a Russian plane. Most importantly, ever since Russia provided the Syrians with S-300, there have been no new attacks. The whole world is waiting and watching for the Israeli move.

Now, as far as India is concerned, S-400 is NOT the only system they employ. They have a complex, multi layer system comprising Israeli, Russian, and homegrown air defence systems. This collection meticulously covers all approaches, angles, and heights. I have been writing for a long time about the futility of deep penetrative air strikes against Indian assets. This was even before S-400. What the S-400 brings is huge range for high flying targets. For low flying targets they will have other options as well. And since S-400 has a range of missiles, the shorter range missiles add more resilience to this mix. Before S-400, there was a possibility to fly high into Indian airspace and release stand off weapons. With this system, even that option isn't viable.

Now consider what happens when you are under a massive saturation attack by Brahmos and your retaliatory strikes are negated by the Indian air defence. This gives India the chance to perform 'surgical strikes' with impunity.

We need a highly capable and sophisticated air defence system in response.

@ptldM3 @vostok have I said something that is wrong here?

 

[randomradio]

they were fired 75 KM near S-400 sight. 75 Kilometers not within range?

How many kills has the F-22 made?

The S-400 air-defense systems are located at Russia's air base at Latakia and its naval base at Tartus.

Incorrect.

There are 2 S-400 sites and 1 S-300. The one at Tartus is S-300. The second S-400 site came after the strikes, so irrelevant here.

But the Russians have flown 30,000+ sorties against US allies and the F-22s have zero kills. Why?

so political reason was only at tomahawk cruises missiles while they destroyed anti radiation and ballistic missiles from frigates mid air before they entered even syrian waters? the thing is they could not engage low flying and carefully maneuvered missiles. "RADAR HORIZON" is what limits this system like any other system.

this is the same reason S400 can't be very effective against MIRV missiles cuz they spread out warheads in unpredictable fashion. with latest MIRV warheads able to maneuver a few degrees at that high speed. hence the need for s500 was there and this is what russian technicians and engineers are working at. Chinese and american engineers are doing the same cuz hyper sonic missiles are a reality and a big threat no anti missile system can defend against yet. hence s500 and newer systems are being worked upon since 2013.
but for ballistic missiles and re-entry missiles radar has to look up and there is no curvature involved it can look at track easily. while on earth there are so so many factors involved. biggest being curvature of earth and radar cross sections.


after russian S400 failed to engage those targets. twitter was blown with russian and chinese tweets about how safe Moscow is ? with russians wondering is S400 also protecting moscow and st perters berg? they were really worried.

Fact of the matter ironically is, earth is not Flat, and it has a curvature. with those kinds of ranges u loose ability to detect low flying objects and more so if the have smaller cross -section on radar. so the ability is reduced for low flying missiles of that type.

The S-300 and S-400s were not used against NATO targets for the same reason as why the F-22 has zero kills.

It's called deconfliction. "You don't attack me, I don't attack you".

That's why the S-400 did not attack the Tomahawks.

This changed when an Israeli EW attack caused Syrian air defence to down a Russian plane.

It wasn't an EW attack. It was an actual attack on the Iranians in Latakia.

Most importantly, ever since Russia provided the Syrians with S-300, there have been no new attacks. The whole world is waiting and watching for the Israeli move.

The Russians are currently operating the Syrian S-300s. And this will go on for at least 3 months, that's why the Israelis cannot attack Syria. Avoiding more diplomatic incidents until the situation calms down have been the reason for no new attacks in Syria yet.

But the Israelis also have the F-35 now.

Before S-400, there was a possibility to fly high into Indian airspace and release stand off weapons. With this system, even that option isn't viable.

IAF had high altitude SAMs even before the S-400 deal. Akash and Pechoras are a good example. So are the MRSAM and SPYDER MR.

What you are talking about is long range. The S-400 can defeat PAF's force multipliers from long range and prevent PAF recce assets from peeking into IAF airspace. If you can't see us, you can't attack us, that's the mantra.

 

[Blue Marlin]

considering drone tech is still some time away for small drones to cover large distances. the best way would be long range hi-low-low cruise missiles once it can get upto 25~km before being spotted. that is if India has the relevant wwr countermeasures. a ballsy mirage pilot with the mar1 may do the trick, a supersonic missile would reduce the reaction for the countermeasures to react. dont know if pakistan has the ld-10 or the cm-102

 

[HariPrasad]

IF we will keep flying decoys in our airspace, how S400 will differentiate from long distance where to shot missile?

In my opinion only minimizing S400 effects in our airspace is enough to counter this expensive toy because it is design for defense not for offensive role.
already both parties have long range radars so S400 for surveillance is irrelevant.

Identifying decoys is very easy. Our pdv differentiated decoys and hit real target in last test.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Saturation doctrine weapon can only be killed by saturation and asymmetric attack. The precision doctrine fails here as the SAM system is designed to tackle all likely scenarios used by the west and its Proxy states like Pakistan.

S400 has a solution: A networked Mesh with Drones that are able to DRFM the SR signal in real time and create targets like the MALD. S400 operator, if engages, loses important weapons. If does not engage, then has to deal with immense traffic on screen of actual flying aircraft and false targets that can allow a package to get through. However, i don't see S400 as the real threat to PAF aircraft but Spyder SAM system, which will have to force Pakistan to fly low and do pop up attacks with SOWs and REKs.
Coming back to S400, a set of 10-20 MALD type high speed drones with smart EW packages should do the job, create a lot of nice traffic and incoming ABMs rendering a S400 incapable to do anything else, or "engage" all the targets or the decoys (which would be flying like fighters or cruise missiles), letting go of precious rounds. As it engages, it is bright and loud and can be seen by a dead ESM receiver on any remote aircraft. If the battery chooses not to engage, it loses. If it choses to engage, it loses. As the battery re-loads, it is taken out. End of S400 chronicles.

 

[CriticalThought]

Saturation doctrine weapon can only be killed by saturation and asymmetric attack. The precision doctrine fails here as the SAM system is designed to tackle all likely scenarios used by the west and its Proxy states like Pakistan.

S400 has a solution: A networked Mesh with Drones that are able to DRFM the SR signal in real time and create targets like the MALD. S400 operator, if engages, loses important weapons. If does not engage, then has to deal with immense traffic on screen of actual flying aircraft and false targets that can allow a package to get through. However, i don't see S400 as the real threat to PAF aircraft but Spyder SAM system, which will have to force Pakistan to fly low and do pop up attacks with SOWs and REKs.
Coming back to S400, a set of 10-20 MALD type high speed drones with smart EW packages should do the job, create a lot of nice traffic and incoming ABMs rendering a S400 incapable to do anything else, or "engage" all the targets or the decoys (which would be flying like fighters or cruise missiles), letting go of precious rounds. As it engages, it is bright and loud and can be seen by a dead ESM receiver on any remote aircraft. If the battery chooses not to engage, it loses. If it choses to engage, it loses. As the battery re-loads, it is taken out. End of S400 chronicles.

Agreed, but it will be part of the larger Indian defence system comprising Israeli, Russian, and Indian components. Maybe S-400 itself isn't a concern, but the emerging picture of Indian air defence certainly is. The multi-layered, and multi-system network means they will have less expensive options to engage as well.

What do you think about our response times to an Indian attack? Instead of countering the attack coming from deep inside Indian territory, we will be engaged countering the air defence system. I see a need for a solid air defence system for Pakistan.

 

[danger007]

Hence, you need both land based and airborne EW capabilities!! The more they expose their signals to your detetctors the more you learn!!! The more you learn the better is your response!!!! For that you need ultra fast computational capabilities from algorithms, software, hardware etc. perspectives!!! And, you require GaN type devices to be custom built to jam and deceive the enemy signal patterns!!! Hopefully, by the time S-400 reaches the Indian side Pak’s friends will have learnt tons of tricks to deter it...

Tons of tricks even before we field them? You can't counter it by just knowing the name, range.. you need collective knowledge of the technology... everyone suggesting modern xyz like swarm drones etc, for that you need sophisticated R&D and years of experience...for god sake some guys bringing chinese will let you study, S 400.. that is not realistic thinking.. Instead countering every weapon we get... you guys need to focus on your defence network.. Everyone here thinking to counter our multilayer defence by launching offensive attack deep into our territory.. but don't you guys think we could do same?