Hindus, Muslims are separate nations: Geelani

[ardent]

there were 1 million muslims massacred at the time of partition so please don't try to rewrite your own version of history.
2nd they were 15 % in United pakistan including east pakistan now bangladesh where they are about 20% of whole population. But after 1971 in present day pakistan they are not even 1% and its not because they were forced to leave but it is because most of hindus were in east Pakistan, so now they are not included in Pakistani current stats. Another fact is that muslims in Pakistan are still reluctant to go for family planning and that is why muslims share in population has increased in present day pakistan.
But having told you all this i know it would not have any real affect and you will continue with normal Pakistan bashing.

it is west pakistan population i am talking about .

including east pakistan ,the number was much higher.

in west punjab and sind ,the hindus were more than 20 percent .

there were not much in baluchistan and NWPF ,except few in peshawar .

also there were many sikhs in punjab.

today ,west punjab and sind are denuded of hindus , and west punjab ,of sikhs.

the birth place of guru nanak lies almost empty in pakistan ,whereas before partition ,there used to be hordes of devotees.

what more can one say ??

 

[prototype]

while deliberations in your parliament are internal affairs, it is obvious that such deliberation would not be binding

i.e. india alone has little to no say in the fate of Kashmiris, though as a stakeholder, they are welcome to present their ''case'' no matter how flawed or obscure it may seem

Kashmiris themselves from all districts should be empowered to vote under a fair and neutral referendum

there's NO other way forward

This is the most vague statement i had ever heard, India a nation which spend heavily on Kashmir,hold election's their have no authority to deliberate about kashmir.

Why u people r trying to make urselfs happy with this delusional reasons,india is not one of the stake holders but the only stakeholders in this case,u can make noise about it as indian subjugation and exploitation and thousand reason's about Kashmir freedom

This case can not b and never b solved if India does not allow a second or third party to involve as it is completely a matter which india controls

U can all day talk about the the disputed land nad us u,S had accepted it but tell me when was the last time any govt tried to intervene in this matter,u call all days about election's, plebiscite,tell me do anyone heard it other than a deaf child,u know why because and only because india is the lone stakeholder in this matter whose opinion counts's,thats all,thank u

 

[bc040400065]

ohh alright..In any case,I was not drawing any conclusions here.Its a whole different country with a different approach altogether.Let them do what they see fit.I was just stating the facts.Can anybody throw some light about the posts of the PM or Army Chief by the way???

Any minority person can be Army chief or Chief of any other force but prime minister should be a muslim. Minority person can and are federal ministers or can have post of grade 22 (highest) in any government services.
Rana Bagwandas remained the senior most judge, acting chief justice, and i think chief justice of sindh high court as well. He is now member of the Judicial Commision which sets the guide line for the judiciary.
I m not 100% sure but there was a Christian Chief Justice as well.

 

[nForce]

i happily accept your offer of friendship. i don't have india hate phobia. i just want poeple to accept and respect others right to live and i think kashmiris also deserve this right.

Well,I consider myself honoured.....

Now,we look at this grave issue called Kashmir,which has practically been a thorn between India-Pakistan relations since the creation of both the nations.

I have an idea which may sound funny to you,but I consider it much more realistic.
Now before I share that idea,let me tell you,that there has been sporadic movements in Indian Kashmir which are directed towards independence,not towards being united with Pakistan.'Azadi' or 'Freedom' as the people involved in the movement call it.

Having said that,it is the two states,India and Pakistan which are locked in this epic battle for the land.Notice that now it becomes a state affair,more like a battle for honour.

Now no political party in India really wants to commit the greatest political suicide of the century by giving up Kashmir to Pakistan.Similarly,no governing body in Pakistan wants to disgrace itself in front of the whole nation of Pakistan by giving up its claim on Kasmir in its entirety.

What happens as a result ??? Pakistan keeps spending a hell lot of resources and man power trying to get hold of the land.There has been atleast two wars and one skirmish based on that.India,in turn spends a hell lot of resources trying to protect the same piece of land,maintains a high troop presence,does border fencing with electronic monitoring for protection against infiltration etc. etc.

So,in the end,both the nations loose a lot of money,resources,manpower and not to mention,precious lives over an issue,which is practically a stalemate.

With the current scenario,neither India can claim over entire Kashmir,nor Pakistan.
So what is the solution??Well,there is no solution to unite Kashmir back to the way it was in pre-partition times.The best way not to do any further damages is leave the situation the way it is now....Thats the only practical solution that comes to my mind.
Let people have peace.No terrorists,no army,no AFSPA,no politics over who had what,how things were before,how it should be now.

We just simply need to stop pursuing the issue.Its like beating the dead horse!!

I think some Indian diplomat popped this idea before,that is to convert LOC into International border,a live and let live kind of approach.But then the idea was nowhere near to be materialized.....

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

in west punjab and sind ,the hindus were more than 20 percent

what's your point?

also there were many sikhs in punjab.

they are still existing there -especially Lahore & Nankana Sahib; in KP as well

the birth place of guru nanak lies almost empty in pakistan ,whereas before partition ,there used to be hordes of devotees.

every year the Khatris come and the Provincial Government pays for their hospitality; last year or maybe the year before it Shabaz Sharif organized charter buses and housing for them, as well as a lunch at his residence.

hell, during pilgrimage season they receive better treatment in Pakistan than they do anywhere in ''east Punjab'' or anywhere else in bharat!

there is not much (if any) ill feeling towards the sardars

 

[ardent]

what's your point?

they have mostly been kicked out ..... .it proves the shallowness of pakistan's claim to treat its minorities well.




they are still existing there; in KP as well

their existing numbers are much lower than before partition.




every year the Khatris come and the Provincial Government pays for their hospitality; last year or maybe the year before it Shabaz Sharif organized charter buses and housing for them, as well as a lunch at his residence.

hell, during pilgrimage season they receive better treatment in Pakistan than they do anywhere in ''east Punjab'' or anywhere else in bharat!

only in piligrimage season !! earlier the place was full of devotees all-year round .


there is not much (if any) ill feeling towards the sardars

when a minority is expunged ,the few remaing produce no ill feeling.

anyway you want to use the sardars as a tool to split east punjab from india ( something pakistan already tried in eighties ),so you are going to behave well towards them

.....................

 

[nForce]

Any minority person can be Army chief or Chief of any other force but prime minister should be a muslim. Minority person can and are federal ministers or can have post of grade 22 (highest) in any government services.
Rana Bagwandas remained the senior most judge, acting chief justice, and i think chief justice of sindh high court as well. He is now member of the Judicial Commision which sets the guide line for the judiciary.
I m not 100% sure but there was a Christian Chief Justice as well.

hmm Christian Chief Justice....that was Justice A.R.Cornelius I think,who served as Chief Justice of Pakistan back in the 60s......

 

[Omar1984]

it is west pakistan population i am talking about .

including east pakistan ,the number was much higher.

in west punjab and sind ,the hindus were more than 20 percent .

there were not much in baluchistan and NWPF ,except few in peshawar .

also there were many sikhs in punjab.

today ,west punjab and sind are denuded of hindus , and west punjab ,of sikhs.

the birth place of guru nanak lies almost empty in pakistan ,whereas before partition ,there used to be hordes of devotees.

what more can one say ??

Sindh's population is mainly Muslim (91.32%), and Sindh is also home to nearly all (93%) of Pakistan's Hindus, who form 7.5% of the province's population. A large number of Hindus migrated to India during the Partition of India in response to the influx of Muhajirs who migrated from India.

Sindh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Most Sikhs who lived in Punjab province of Pakistan migrated to India's part of Punjab after partition. Today the largest Pakistani population of Sikhs live in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province and the largest Pakistani population of Hindus live in Sindh province.

I could ask you a similar question. What happened to the Muslims in India's side of Punjab especially Gurdaspur and Ferozepur district which were Muslim majority districts before partition.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what's your point?they have mostly been kicked out ..... .it proves the shallowness of pakistan's claim to treat its minorities well

well, our Constitution and governmental setup do accomodate for them......however, i'd be lying through my teeth if I told you that minority rights and record of ''protection'' of minorities in Pakistan is pearl-white and flawless

yes we've had instances of intolerance and bigotry, we've had the (in my view) super backwards ''blasphemy laws'' which I think need to be revoked.....

but we've also gone many steps forward; more so under the previous administration

more needs to be done in Pakistan, as is the case with many nearby neigbhour countries which face the exact same problems...that comes through good state and federal governments, and through the empowerment of representative groups (in Pakistan, there are groups that represents Pakistani hindus)

I personally, as a Muslim, as a proud Pakistani --- I would say that I view our minorities as much citizens as I myself. They are as patriotic Pakistanis as we are. I do hope to see more and more do well and work hard for the nation and its people.

their existing numbers are much lower than before partition.

well obviously! by the same token, what is today india would have had a huge Muslim population had there not been partition --of course it would still be a minority though. But there WAS partition, it was for a right reason.

partition did obviously change some demographics here and there

only in piligrimage season !! earlier the place was full of devotees all-year round .

they're still there even during non pilgrimage season; albeit in smaller numbers

there was no state-sponsored genocide or ethnic cleansing of these people; some stayed behind, some left. It was their own decision, not forced upon them.

By the way, Sikh Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee always holding events and seminars in Pakistan -especially in Punjab.

when a minority is expunged ,the few remaing produce no ill feeling.

nobody was ''expunged'' what rubbish are you talking about now

anyway you want to use the sardars as a tool to split east punjab from india ( something pakistan already tried in eighties ),so you are going to behave well towards them

nobody brought this up besides you......seems you are bringing up side-topics needlessly.

we can discuss the Sikh uprising in another thread; in fact, I don't think we should delve further into Sikh-Pakistan debate when the topic in focus is Hindus, Muslims, and Kashmir in general

hopefully you would agree

 

[Omar1984]

Shame on all you indians who are insulting Mr Geelani because of his age calling him names like "budda". All of you will get old too one day and I dont know about indian culture but in Pakistani culture we are taught to show respect to our elders.

 

[ardent]

Sindh's population is mainly Muslim (91.32%), and Sindh is also home to nearly all (93%) of Pakistan's Hindus, who form 7.5% of the province's population. A large number of Hindus migrated to India during the Partition of India in response to the influx of Muhajirs who migrated from India.

Sindh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Most Sikhs who lived in Punjab province of Pakistan migrated to India's part of Punjab after partition. Today the largest Pakistani population of Sikhs live in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province and the largest Pakistani population of Hindus live in Sindh province.

I could ask you a similar question. What happened to the Muslims in India's side of Punjab especially Gurdaspur and Ferozepur district which were Muslim majority districts before partition.

look at this post of mine-

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...-separate-nations-geelani-11.html#post1242176

i have already admitted that there were riots in punjab and bihar.

but in other parts of india , muslims were tolerated ,the way hindus and sikhs were NOT , in pakistan.

india is a huge country , and there are other parts than punjab.......where no harm was done to muslims.

in fact muslims have grown from 10.6 percent according to the 1961 census to 13.4 percent acccording to the 2001 census.

but hindus in pakistan have dwindled.......

 

[ardent]

well obviously! by the same token, what is today india would have had a huge Muslim population had there not been partition --of course it would still be a minority though. But there WAS partition, it was for a right reason.

partition did obviously change some demographics here and there

yes but muslim population has grown in india ,but minorities in pakistan haven't


nobody was ''expunged'' what rubbish are you talking about now

pak means pure , and pak was made pure by expelling the minorities.

.......................

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

yes but muslim population has grown in india ,but minorities in pakistan haven't

I'm in favour of controlling our population growths as they are currently not sustainable; here you are talking about growing populations

pak means pure , and pak was made pure by expelling the minorities.

baseless indian propaganda; i wont even waste my time giving you an intellectual answer to an absurd retort like that

 

[Omar1984]

look at this post of mine-

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...-separate-nations-geelani-11.html#post1242176

i have already admitted that there were riots in punjab and bihar.

but in other parts of india , muslims were tolerated ,the way hindus and sikhs were NOT , in pakistan.

india is a huge country , and there are other parts than punjab.......where no harm was done to muslims.

in fact muslims have grown from 10.6 percent according to the 1961 census to 13.4 percent acccording to the 2001 census.

but hindus in pakistan have dwindled.......

Muslims were tolerated in South India during partition not North India.

About Sindh:

In 1947, Pakistan gained independence from British India. Sindh was a Muslim-majority province and its elected provincial assembly voted to join Pakistan. Many Hindus opted to remain in Sindh after independence of Pakistan since there was no history of conflict between Hindus and Muslims in Sindh. Muslim refugees who had escaped from violent communal riots and genocide in northern India started to come and settle in Sindh. These Muslim refugees from India, known as Muhajirs, who have lost everything in India, took out their anger on local Hindus. Many Hindus were forced to flee Sindh after communal riots, leaving everything behind.[3]
Sindhi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today 7.5% of the population in Sindh province is Hindu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh


How many Muslims are left in India's part of Punjab. Before partition, Punjab was Muslim majority. Two Muslim majority districts of Punjab were awarded to India after partition, today Muslims are virtually non-existent in those areas.



And after partition of 1947, East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) had the largest number of Hindus. When we lost East Pakistan we lost the Hindus with it.

And show me proof that after we lost East Pakistan we started to kill Hindus and Sikhs so their population would decrease.

North-western parts of the subcontinent (Kashmir and Pakistan) were always Muslim majority for centuries and you hindus have a tough time swallowing that fact.

 

[nForce]

I'm in favour of controlling our population growths as they are currently not sustainable; here you are talking about growing populations

The overall population of Pakistan has increased over the years..It was 39,448,232 in 1950 and 174,579,000 in 2009.But the population of minorities have significantly decrease from about 24 % in prepartition times to a mere 2 % now.Now,this is definitely not population control or family planning......