Heir of IVC, India or Pakistan ?

[Max]

Well so your logic makes no sense then...period!
And good luck trying to convince the world not to call us Indians, dear Paistani!

no need to convince world, world have to come to Pakistan to visit important IVC sites like Mohinjoo daro and Harappa, Taxila not gangaland Indus 95% belong to Pakistan.. we Pakistani must be thankful that you are spreading name of our land along with our Indonesian brothers.. we are proud that we have Subcontinent name based on our land, sea name based on land of indus,. and largest asean nation named after our land,, again special thanks to gangalanders

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

First of all, there is no such thing as Ganga Valley. The ecosystem therein is known as Gangetic plains or basin. Thirdly, you like all other Pakistanis exhibit little knowledge but a louder mouth in insinuating that I am talking about only rivers in the Gangetic Basin.

There are many such major riverine basins across India, not just the Gangetic one. For your reference, when I say across India it means from Kashmir to Kanyakumari (the absolute tip of Peninsular India) and from Rajasthan to Arunachal Pradesh. Distances spanning many thousands of kilometers as the crow flies in which ever directional axis you choose.

Whether or not Indus flows more in Pakistan is not the question. The question is simply whether does Indus flow in India as well, if it does, it will be called an Indian river by us.
Secondly, does the old IVC geographically fall in India. That coupled with the fact that IVC is nothing but a proto version of Vedic civilization means that too shall always be considered Indian.

Though Pakistan as usual can keep claiming everyone from Ghauri to Tipu sultan as it usually does, not that it will matter to anyone else.

IVC remains Indian. Regardless of Pakistani mental gymnastics.

The Nile river flows into Sudan; does that give them any right to claim the Nile civilization?

Nile Civilization influenced the Nubian region; does that still give them any right to claim the Nile civilization?

We dont claim Ghauri or Tipu Sultan; we just admire them.

 

[Max]

By trying so hard, you only expose yourself wannabe Indian...
We don't mind though...there are several like you and we empathize with your lot.

again as i said people with little knowledge will find the meaning of India and will slap you to reality.. dont need to repeat one comment again and again... ganga didi deserve appriciation from you guys..

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

So what is the Pakistani connection to the IVC and its people?
Can you just explain this part? What are the similarities between the two people?

What similarities are there between Modern Egyptians and Nile civilization? What similarities are there between Iraqis and Mesopotamian civilization? Times change and so does everything else along with it - many Punjabi and Sindhi traditions have segments that trace themselves to the Indus civilization. People of the Indus also used to eat meat and bury their dead.

DNA and Migration routes also prove 'similarities'; looking at the migration routes - even Eastern Europeans have more rights to claim IVC than Indians.

Our ancestors arrived in the Indus and stayed in the Indus except for the migration to Eastern Europe and West India Coast.

people who knows land of indus knows who are wanna be Indians why did gangalanders not named thier nation gangaland despite great sacrifices by ganga.. innocent ganga have become most polluted river (Paap dho dho Kar).. ganga supply you the much need water to most of ur population, ganga is holiest to you, largest river of gangaland yet you chose India as name after 47 says a lot who are real wanna be 's

They never chose 'India' as their country's name; Instead - like always; it was given to them.

 

[Peshwa]

What similarities are there between Modern Egyptians and Nile civilization? What similarities are there between Iraqis and Mesopotamian civilization? Times change and so does everything else along with it - many Punjabi and Sindhi traditions have segments that trace themselves to the Indus civilization. People of the Indus also used to eat meat and bury their dead.

Eating meat and burying dead?!! That's the proof?!
People all over Europe and US eat meat and bury their dead...a similar practice by many other cultures (in fact all abrahamic religions), so how is this unique and make you the inheritor of the IVC?
Secondly, unlike the IVC where there are theories of either the civilization being destroyed (Aryan Invasion Theory) or migration (IVC folks moved into the plains of India), we know what happened to those two civilization (nile and mesopotamia). Enough is known about their language, religion, script etc to decipher what happened to them. Their texts can be deciphered and interpreted. In the case of those two civilization, we could possibly trace the "heir" (though I have no idea how it would help the present conditions of those regions or people)

When little to no data exists except theories on the fate of the IVC, how can you claim that IVC folks just continued to live on in the same regions and became present day pakistanis?!! Especially given that the region you mentioned has had invasions, mass killings, rape, genocide that comes with war and invasion thrust upon it from thousands of years! Demography has changed over the 5000 year history of the region.

IVC is the history of the lands (Pakistan)...not its people of current day Pakistan as not much is known about what happened to the people of IVC or even who they were. And as per your own admission, things change..so demography may very well have changed as well.
It is a shared history of the subcontinent that cannot be limited by modern day boundaries.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

But first you need to prove that the people of IVC have been continuously living in the Pakistani regions for the past 5000 years and that present day Pakistanis are direct descendants of them..

You do understand what the term forefathers means right?
Can you please show us any Pakistani that draws lineage from IVC civilization? If not at least a continuity of culture? Religion perhaps?
Or is the geography the only supporting claim here?

Eating meat and burying dead?!! That's the proof?!
People all over Europe and US eat meat and bury their dead...a similar practice by many other cultures (in fact all abrahamic religions), so how is this unique and make you the inheritor of the IVC?
Secondly, unlike the IVC where there are theories of either the civilization being destroyed (Aryan Invasion Theory) or migration (IVC folks moved into the plains of India), we know what happened to those two civilization (nile and mesopotamia). Enough is known about their language, religion, script etc to decipher what happened to them. Their texts can be deciphered and interpreted. In the case of those two civilization, we could possibly trace the "heir" (though I have no idea how it would help the present conditions of those regions or people)

When little to no data exists except theories on the fate of the IVC, how can you claim that IVC folks just continued to live on in the same regions and became present day pakistanis?!! Especially given that the region you mentioned has had invasions, mass killings, rape, genocide that comes with war and invasion thrust upon it from thousands of years! Demography has changed over the 5000 year history of the region.

IVC is the history of the lands (Pakistan)...not its people of current day Pakistan as not much is known about what happened to the people of IVC or even who they were. And as per your own admission, things change..so demography may very well have changed as well.
It is a shared history of the subcontinent that cannot be limited by modern day boundaries.

Bhai; I already shown you DNA maps; although Pakistan was the epicenter of migrations and invasions; DNA still shows that many Pakistanis still retain distinct and unique DNA within the region.

IVC collapsed, that does not mean that the people mysteriously transformed into dust. The cradle of civilizations; Egypt and Iraq were all epicenters of migrations and invasions - but demographics were only slightly changed. Many civilizations and Empires have collapsed in history - that does not mean people collapse as well.

There is no such theory as people of IVC migrated to Ganges plains - this shows me how much desperate you are getting and how low Indians have to stoop down to. Nor such a migration could ever take place.

The only mass migration of people of IVC was into Eastern Europe.

Rulers changed, kingdoms changed, culture changed, religion changed - people remained, integrated and adapted.

I can show you the maps again -

North Indus

South Indus

 

[Royal Kathiyawadi]

so pakistan is True Heir of IVC i got answer @Horus can u close this thread ?

 

[Peshwa]

Bhai; I already shown you DNA maps; although Pakistan was the epicenter of migrations and invasions; DNA still shows that many Pakistanis still retain distinct and unique DNA within the region.

How are you claiming DNA of IVC people when you dont have any samples of their DNA?!

IVC collapsed, that does not mean that the people mysteriously transformed into dust. The cradle of civilizations; Egypt and Iraq were all epicenters of migrations and invasions - but demographics were only slightly changed. Many civilizations and have collapsed in history - that does not mean people collapse as well.

So if the IVC collapsed, what could be the reasons?
Invasion? If that's the case, then the original inhabitants of IVC were most likely killed and replaced by invaders. How else does an invasion end? either in death or migration of the original inhabitants. But this seems unlikely since the IVC cities are quite well preserved.

Was it a natural calamity? Lack of food, bad weather, floods? Again, outcome remains that IVC residents were either killed or migrated.
If they migrated, it would be east to India or west to Iran. North made no sense as it goes towards mountains and cold weather. Migration patterns always move in the direction of warm weather and water sources.

If none of the above happened, then where are the people of the IVC? Why was an advanced city abandoned? What happened to their language, script, religion? It should still be preserved if it never left its original lands...how is there no trace of this in the local cultures that flourish there now?
But then, where is the evidence of the same in present day Pakistan? please explain what happened since you keep reposting the map but have not explained what we are to gain from it.

So how exactly are these people then living in the same place where an invasion took place or a natural calamity wiped out a civilization and they either died or migrated?

There is no such theory as people of IVC migrated to Ganges plains - this shows me how much desperate you are getting and how low Indians have to stoop down to. Nor such a migration could ever take place.

Please don't misquote me, i never claimed they moved to the Ganges plains.
I did say that they moved into India or migrated elsewhere and this has been explained above.

The only mass migration of people of IVC was into Eastern Europe.

WHAT?!!!
Where did you get this from?! Nothing that I have read supports this...Please provide source.

Rulers changed, kingdoms changed, culture changed, religion changed - people remained, integrated and adapted.

I can show you the maps again -

I think you are overestimating the importance of these maps in this discussion.
If you don't have evidence of DNA of IVC people in the first place, how can you map the pattern of their migration?!
Or are you assuming that since Pakistanis live on what was IVC land that it is to be assumed that Pakistani DNA is the same as IVC inhabitant DNA?!! Coz that's a logical fallacy and wrong from the onset!








South Indus

[/QUOTE]

 

[T90TankGuy]

@Joe Shearer what we discussed about

 

[Maira La]

Indus Valley Civilisation LED to Vedic Civilisation ie Hindu Civilisation
and spread to the whole sub continent

Nationalistic jingoism should be followed by an 'imo'. Having 'led' in all big letters doesn't make it any more convincing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer what we discussed about

Have you seen the earlier posts on this thread?

My earliest posts on PDF were precisely on the same subject, and it is amusing to see the same young cockerels display the same ignorance and stupidity as they displayed years ago.

I don't bother to get involved in these dog-fights any more. They lack class. They lack manners. They lack knowledge.

 

[Nilgiri]

Have you seen the earlier posts on this thread?

My earliest posts on PDF were precisely on the same subject, and it is amusing to see the same young cockerels display the same ignorance and stupidity as they displayed years ago.

I don't bother to get involved in these dog-fights any more. They lack class. They lack manners. They lack knowledge.

Same. It just devolves into the same flamewar tactics and cheap jibes. Lose all sense on what we are talking about.

I doubt 1% of the people in these flamewars have bothered to actually read any of the papers and material published about IVC over the years in their entirety rather than rely on selective blogs and wiki to cherry pick and distort whatever inbuilt "truth" they are peddling.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Nationalistic jingoism should be followed by an 'imo'. Having 'led' in all big letters doesn't make it any more convincing.

So in your OPINION what happened after the IVC faded away

what came after IVC

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nationalistic jingoism should be followed by an 'imo'. Having 'led' in all big letters doesn't make it any more convincing.

He's talking utter bullshit anyway; why waste time on correcting his jingoism? Why correct it on this point in particular, when all his posts have that amazing self-confidence coupled with equally amazing ignorance?

 

[Armstrong]

Have you seen the earlier posts on this thread?

My earliest posts on PDF were precisely on the same subject, and it is amusing to see the same young cockerels display the same ignorance and stupidity as they displayed years ago.

I don't bother to get involved in these dog-fights any more. They lack class. They lack manners. They lack knowledge.

True...so true; besides everyone knows that I and I alone am the true heir of the IVC !

Mohenjodaro is an ancient Indic word meaning Armstrongville !