HAL to play critical role in fifth gen aircraft

[CONNAN]

HAL to play critical role in fifth gen aircraft - The Economic Times

BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will be playing a critical role in the design and development of the much-vaunted Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme , contrary to expectations , the state-owned defence undertaking’s chairman and managing director told ET.

With the $30-billion agreement scheduled to be signed during Russian president Dimitry Medvedev’s visit to India in December , questions had been raised about the company’s exact role, considering it will be India’s primary development agency for the programme.

“We will be part of the team designing the aircraft’s fuselage and airframe, and will be manufacturing the same in India as well. While we have had a certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features such as stealth and super cruise will add to our knowledge,” HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak said.

The concern arises from the fact that the Russians have been developing a single seater prototype, the PAKFA T-50 since 1999, and carried out a test flight earlier this month, its 22nd since its maiden flight in January 2010, with a large degree of success.

While the Indian Air Force has indicated its preference for a twin-seater version of the fifth generation aircraft, Mr Nayak indicated that HAL will be playing a role in the further development of the single-seater combat aircraft as well.

“We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version ,” he said. There is a possibility of the IAF inducting between 250 to 300 FGFA by 2018, comprising of both single-seater and twinseater variants, while the Russians have shown their preference for the former only. “We are going along with the single-seater FGFA for the moment, but the IAF want a twin-seater combat aircraft also. However, this is yet to be crystallised ,” Mr Nayak said.

 

[luckyyy]

if india funding equally to the extent of $30bn..

will india get a hand on engine tech and have the right to menufecture it without paying rolyaliy , will india get a equal copy-right on eveything related to this aircraft and can indian extablishments will be on their right to use the tech in any other way they wish...??

will india be able to menufecture , maintain , upgrade and modify the aircraft of it's own...?

don't the amount of $30bn is too high , couldn't DRDO/ADA can produce the a plane at much lesser cost taking the knowledge gained from LCA project.....?

 

[kingdurgaking]

HAL to play critical role in fifth gen aircraft - The Economic Times

BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will be playing a critical role in the design and development of the much-vaunted Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme , contrary to expectations , the state-owned defence undertaking’s chairman and managing director told ET.

With the $30-billion agreement scheduled to be signed during Russian president Dimitry Medvedev’s visit to India in December , questions had been raised about the company’s exact role, considering it will be India’s primary development agency for the programme.

“We will be part of the team designing the aircraft’s fuselage and airframe, and will be manufacturing the same in India as well. While we have had a certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features such as stealth and super cruise will add to our knowledge,” HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak said.

The concern arises from the fact that the Russians have been developing a single seater prototype, the PAKFA T-50 since 1999, and carried out a test flight earlier this month, its 22nd since its maiden flight in January 2010, with a large degree of success.

While the Indian Air Force has indicated its preference for a twin-seater version of the fifth generation aircraft, Mr Nayak indicated that HAL will be playing a role in the further development of the single-seater combat aircraft as well.

“We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version ,” he said. There is a possibility of the IAF inducting between 250 to 300 FGFA by 2018, comprising of both single-seater and twinseater variants, while the Russians have shown their preference for the former only. “We are going along with the single-seater FGFA for the moment, but the IAF want a twin-seater combat aircraft also. However, this is yet to be crystallised ,” Mr Nayak said.

hmmm one of our friend(sancho) is not going to like this HAL contribution

 

[sancho]

hmmm one of our friend(sancho) is not going to like this HAL contribution

Not really my friend, because it confirms what I said!

We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version

Wasn't it me, who said that FGFA most likely will be a twin seat version of the Pak Fa and won't have an own design, made by HAL?

While we have had a certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features such as stealth and super cruise will add to our knowledge,”

Wasn't it me who said that ADA/HAL... have simply no base at the moment to develop FGFA, or AMCA and that we have to finish LCA and co-develop FGFA first to get the needed experience and know how?

 

[Ingis]

I hope HAL makes some stealthy modifications to the exhaust system of the FGFA.

The engine exhaust area of the PAK-FA prototype is not at all stealthy.

Just look at those huge engine nozzles --

 

[kingdurgaking]

Not really my friend, because it confirms what I said!

Wasn't it me, who said that FGFA most likely will be a twin seat version of the Pak Fa and won't have an own design, made by HAL?

Wasn't it me who said that ADA/HAL... have simply no base at the moment to develop FGFA, or AMCA and that we have to finish LCA and co-develop FGFA first to get the needed experience and know how?

Sirjee .. not able to understand what you are saying.. Are you saying HAL has no competency to develop AMCA or FGFA?...

I can feel they are confident enough to undertake dont they? .. If they can manufacture the Airframe in India shows they are contributing a good deal in the project.... I hope i am right that Airframe contributes to Stealth don't they?

So you still stand by saying that just by adding one extra seat to PAK FA it becomes FGFA? so there is no other contribution from HAL?

Oke we have to wait on your words because i feel it is not the case... we will have substantially different system in FGFA than PAK FA... though the may look almost same in airframes .. right now we cant debate on this until something matures.. now it is just a prediction... Still as per your argument it shouldnt take half a decade to bring the Fighter to light.. any way we are here we will talk on this latter...

hmmmm actually as per the report it says HAL will work in single seater to understand the design process so that they can move to twin seat... so i feel they will do justice... And a little bit of guessing is they already have knowledge on stealth and supercruise... what is your take on this?

 

[sancho]

Sirjee .. not able to understand what you are saying.. Are you saying HAL has no competency to develop AMCA or FGFA?...

No, not at the moment and the article confirms it!

So you still stand by saying that just by adding one extra seat to PAK FA it becomes FGFA? so there is no other contribution from HAL?

That's what you can get out of those things that were reported so far, HALs contribution will be some assistance to the design in a team with Sukhoi, but mainly composite materials and avionics.

hmmmm actually as per the report it says HAL will work in single seater to understand the design process so that they can move to twin seat... so i feel they will do justice... And a little bit of guessing is they already have knowledge on stealth and supercruise... what is your take on this?

But they only started to work on the single seater and want to start AMCA by next year, do you really think they will so much an that short time? Where should they get practical knowledge from? We have no own working engine, we have not even a foreign engine that offers Supercruise and where should we get experience in stealth from, just because we have a windtunnel model?

 

[kingdurgaking]

No, not at the moment and the article confirms it!

That's what you can get out of those things that were reported so far, HALs contribution will be some assistance to the design in a team with Sukhoi, but mainly composite materials and avionics.

But they only started to work on the single seater and want to start AMCA by next year, do you really think they will so much an that short time? Where should they get practical knowledge from? We have no own working engine, we have not even a foreign engine that offers Supercruise and where should we get experience in stealth from, just because we have a windtunnel model?

Oke sirjee.. we will see how bad is HAL .. any ways ... there was a report which said that HAL unofficially did some work for AMCA... secondly engine is an important factor which you stated... but you agree on the fact that engine alone is not enough for supercruise ... Lets wait and see as i can only speculate and i dont have information on your source...

 

[sancho]

Oke sirjee.. we will see how bad is HAL .. any ways ... there was a report which said that HAL unofficially did some work for AMCA... secondly engine is an important factor which you stated... but you agree on the fact that engine alone is not enough for supercruise ... Lets wait and see as i can only speculate and i dont have information on your source...

I don't say HAL is bad, I say they want too much, too fast and it would be better to concentrate on all the other developments that are running (LCA, LCH, LUH, Saras, UAVs RTA...). Let them build a base and then move on, instead of making the same mistakes again.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I can still say... they have done excellent work... with a meager funding here and there.. they struggled and managed to come so far.. So to whom do you suggest to give the next projects AMCA etc in India? There is no other capable candidate ... Everything will go to them only... And Tejas delay was not there fault.. They planned something keeping some input in mind and ended up with different input... plus lot of other issues...

As for LCH they did a good work ... they brought up the plane very quickly dont they? As far saras and UAV they are yet to achieve the first step ... Once done they will be able to do a commendable work..

OT... were you an employee of HAL/DRDO?? just curious... because only the employees of a company will not have faith on it....

 

[kingdurgaking]

self delete

 

[CONNAN]

HAL at the heart of Indian 5th-gen combat aircraft - The Economic Times


HAL at the heart of Indian 5th-gen combat aircraft

BANGALORE: Contrary to media reports, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be playing a major role in the design and development of the much-vaunted Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme, the stateowned defence undertaking’s chairman told ET.

The $30-billion joint development agreement is expected to be launched with the signing of $295 million preliminary design contract during Russian president Dimitry Medvedev’s visit to India in December, which will also flesh out the role of the state-owned defence firm, India’s primary development agency for the programme.

“We will be a part of the team designing the IAF variant of the aircraft, and will be manufacturing it in India as well. While we have had certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features, such as stealth and super cruise, will add to our knowledge,” HAL chairman Ashok Nayak said.

The concern arises from the fact that the Russians have been developing a single-seater prototype, the PAKFA T-50 since 1999, and carried out a largely successful test flight earlier this month, 22nd since its maiden flight in January, 2010.

While the IAF had reportedly indicated its option for a twin-seater version of the aircraft, Mr Nayak said HAL will be playing a role in the further development of the single-seater combat aircraft as well. “We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version,” he said.

There is a possibility of the IAF inducting between 250 to 300 FGFA, starting from 2018, comprising of both single-seater and twin-seater variants, while the Russians have shown their preference for the former. Earlier media reports had speculated that HAL, while gaining valuable experience in the field of avionics, stealth and super-cruise , will not play much of a role in designing and developing the stealth fighter.

“Design, development and production of the aircraft will be shared between the two countries. Our pilots will be flying the aircraft. Whether this will be done in Bangalore or Nasik, is yet to be decided. We could build it in Nasik and fly it in Bangalore,” Mr Nayak said.

HAL chairman added that the final design contract for the FGFA programme is expected to be signed 18 months from the signing of the preliminary design contract. “Once the full design contract is signed, we will talk about the development and manufacturing aspect of the FGFA. Whether everything can be done in India, or some elements will have to be sourced from there, will be decided then. Sticking to the timescale will be critical,” he said.

The HAL chairman ruled out the possibility of a clash between the production schedules of current strike fighter, the Sukhoi-30 MKI and the FGFA, while pointing out the need to scale up production capacities to meet the requirements of the IAF in the long-term.

“The company will have to expand. We have to ensure that we have that much more capacity to handle these (the Sukhoi and FGFA production lines). We need to achieve our timescales, and be slightly ahead of schedules. We also have to decide, how much work can be retained inhouse, and the amount that can be done by outside industries,” he said. The FGFA is expected to compete with the US F-22 Raptor, which is codeveloped by Lockheed Martin and Boeing, and is currently the world’s only fifth-generation fighter in service.

It has to be taken into account that the US defence secretary, Robert Gates, capped the requirement for the Raptor at 183 aircraft, citing it as being excessive to its needs. Some experts feel that the deal highlights an unhealthy aspect of India’s defence procurement strategy: Its ongoing dependency on the Russians to bulk up its declining air force squadrons.

Currently, it is the recipient of almost 40% of Russia’s defence exports, a policy shaped by Russia’s willingness to supply critical technologies to India, which has ensured that it maintains a special place in India’s strategic policy. “Given that 75% of the IAF’s combat inventory is of Russian origin, we have to diversify. There is no reason for us to have our apron strings tied to them. Numbers suggest that even if the latest Indo-Russian deal does not go through, almost 60% of the IAF combat force will still remain Russia-dependent,” Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh said.

Given the huge sums of money involved, India, through HAL, will want to ensure it has access to critical design and technology, which has always been a matter of concern as evinced by Russia’s numerous volte-face in the Sukhoi and T-90 main battle tank deals.

“There have been numerous issues. One should not forget that the Sukhoi-30 MKI, probably the best combat aircraft, was largely developed in Russia by HAL with Indian money, since the IAF wanted the aircraft tailored to its specifications. It is not a situation that warrants repeating,” Mr Singh said.

 

[kingdurgaking]

HAL chairman added that the final design contract for the FGFA programme is expected to be signed 18 months from the signing of the preliminary design contract. “Once the full design contract is signed, we will talk about the development and manufacturing aspect of the FGFA. Whether everything can be done in India, or some elements will have to be sourced from there, will be decided then. Sticking to the timescale will be critical,” he said.

What a crap.. It takes 1.5 yrs to sign the final contract .. what will they be doing all these days?... And discussion is going to start after that about what to do where? holy cow...

 

[sancho]

So to whom do you suggest to give the next projects AMCA etc in India? There is no other capable candidate ... Everything will go to them only...

I never said that I want somebody else to do it, I said HAL/ADA can't do it now, because they don't have the experience and know how, like they confirm in the article.
If AMCA would be necessary (what I doubt!), it would be more logical if they would go like this:

- 2010 IOC of LCA MK1
- 2011 start of mass production and involvement into Pak Fa development
- 2013 induction of MK1 into service and IOC of MK2
- 2014 induction of 2nd MK1 squad, start of mass production of MK2, induction of first MMRCA squad and start of FGFA redesign
- 2015 induction of MK2, start licence production of MMRCA, possibly induction of some Pak Fa
- 2016 IOC of FGFA and start of AMCA

By that time LCA MK1 & 2 will be done and we will have even 3 years of experience with it in operational service. We will get know how and experience of 5. gen Pak Fa developments, as well as ToT of it and MMRCA. Not to mention with the co-developments and partnerships around LCA and MMRCA (AESA radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, licence production of foreign engines and avionics...).
If we start then, with a clear boost of our own capabilities and with still 9 years left before a Jaguar might be replaced, the chances of successfully developing a fully indigenous figher (like they wish) are clearly higher.

 

[Dash]

I can still say... they have done excellent work... with a meager funding here and there.. they struggled and managed to come so far.. So to whom do you suggest to give the next projects AMCA etc in India? There is no other capable candidate ... Everything will go to them only... And Tejas delay was not there fault.. They planned something keeping some input in mind and ended up with different input... plus lot of other issues...

As for LCH they did a good work ... they brought up the plane very quickly dont they? As far saras and UAV they are yet to achieve the first step ... Once done they will be able to do a commendable work..

OT... were you an employee of HAL/DRDO?? just curious... because only the employees of a company will not have faith on it....

They didnt have funding, they didnt have resources and support, and thats a seperate thing and we dont blame them for this.

All we say is..

They dont have the capacity to develope AMCA or FGFA right now.
And thats a fact.