Germans may find it hard to sell their subs to India..

[JanjaWeed]

Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.

But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

Vital shortcoming

According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.

Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu

 

[SirHatesALot]

[QUOTEOr, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.[/QUOTE]

Are Chinese subs really that noisy?

 

[GR!FF!N]

[QUOTEOr, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Are Chinese subs really that noisy?[/QUOTE]

nobody can verify this...but according to various reports,they are..read this..though its a year and half old article..

China

and also this..

China's Noisy Subs Get Busier -- And Easier to Track | Danger Room | Wired.com

by the way,you must go for quietest subs..Modified Scorpene is good,but no mix up this time.no price hike,no delay..Amur-1650 is not bad either..by the way,why we are not following footsteps of Iran by building small subs that can perform patrol duties and to fill the number gaps while more capable subs will be used for more challenging tasks??

 

[janon]

Are Chinese subs really that noisy?

nobody can verify this...but according to various reports,they are..read this..though its a year and half old article..

China

and also this..

China's Noisy Subs Get Busier -- And Easier to Track | Danger Room | Wired.com

by the way,you must go for quietest subs..Modified Scorpene is good,but no mix up this time.no price hike,no delay..Amur-1650 is not bad either..by the way,why we are not following footsteps of Iran by building small subs that can perform patrol duties and to fill the number gaps while more capable subs will be used for more challenging tasks??

Because we cant really put mini subs to any good use. They have a very small range, can only operate in shallow waters near the shore, and carry only torpedoes and mines. They are useful for coastal defence, or to attack naval and merchant ships very close to the mainland. So Iran can use them to attack merchant ships in the shallow waters of the Persian gulf, and maybe a naval vessel that ventures very close to their shore. But the shipping lanes in the IOR do not lie that close to our harbours. And enemy ships will not venture that close to our shores anyway. Also, we have a large coast guard for coastal defence.

Our submarine arm is meant to be offensive - to perform blue water operations, to attack enemy naval ships and enforce blockades of enemy harbours, to accompany our carrier battle group or other large fleets, and maybe disrupt or control oil and merchant shipping in the IOR. None of this can be achieved by mini subs, which cannot venture into the high seas.

Performing coastal defence is not really the mandate of our submarine arm. We don't need to operate subs for that, since we expect any enemy ships to stay well off our coast. With such a large navy and coast guard, we don't really expect to be bombarded with naval artillery from enemy ships. Not to mention the air assets we have. Our submarines are meant for bigger roles, and purely to attack.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

[QUOTEOr, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Are Chinese subs really that noisy?[/QUOTE]

All the indications are that they are.

 

[Bhai Zakir]

No need for german stuff if its not good, we can have French or Russian subs.

Everybody is crawling on their stomach in front of us as we pay in hard cash.

 

[jha]

Are Chinese subs really that noisy?

by the way,you must go for quietest subs..Modified Scorpene is good,but no mix up this time.no price hike,no delay..Amur-1650 is not bad either..by the way,why we are not following footsteps of Iran by building small subs that can perform patrol duties and to fill the number gaps while more capable subs will be used for more challenging tasks??[/QUOTE]

Small Subs are for coastal defence imo. I do not see any enemy coming so close to our shores. Why is the name of God are we investing so much on Frigates and Destroyer's..?

 

[Viet]

The Germans are well-known for building most advanced subs in the world.

 

[arp2041]

In all Likelihood, French DCNS are walking away with P-75I with there LARGER scorpenes.

 

[IND151]

Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

Technical problems

Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.


But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

Vital shortcoming

According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.

Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu

thanks for info

The Germans are well-known for building most advanced subs in the world.

correction

The Germans are well-known for building most advanced conventional subs in the world.

do all modern subs have seven bladed motors

 

[lilaspr]

i believe Russian subs are also not that bad. This is almost sure French will get the next sub contract, keeping DCNS presence in India.

 

[janon]

In all Likelihood, French DCNS are walking away with P-75I with there LARGER scorpenes.

i believe Russian subs are also not that bad. This is almost sure French will get the next sub contract, keeping DCNS presence in India.

However, the tortuous and meandering path that the scorpene program has had so far could not have gone down well. We still don't have a scorpene, and wont until 2015. With such delays, will the IN want to go for scorpenes again? Also, are they as advanced as some of the other designs out there? And can the larger scorpenes fire the brahmos? (I think that's a requirement for the P-75I.)

If it will bring a lot of commonality and consequent cost savings, I am all for it though. However, French hardware tends to be expensive, both platforms and weapons.

 

[arp2041]

However, the tortuous and meandering path that the scorpene program has had so far could not have gone down well. We still don't have a scorpene, and wont until 2015. With such delays, will the IN want to go for scorpenes again? Also, are they as advanced as some of the other designs out there? And can the larger scorpenes fire the brahmos? (I think that's a requirement for the P-75I.)

If it will bring a lot of commonality and consequent cost savings, I am all for it though. However, French hardware tends to be expensive, both platforms and weapons.

@janon the torturous path was due to the difficulty of absorbing the state of the art tech. on the MDL's part. I strongly feel that IN will indeed go for Larger scorpene due to following points:

1. Since MDL has already absorbed the tech. of scorpenes, it would find very easy to build larger subs of these types in quicker time considering the needs of IN.

2. DCNS has now a proven AIP in MESMA.

3. For Brahmos - There was a video Posted by @sancho which demonstrated as to how DCNS has achieved success in land attack & anti-ac capability, launching missiles from torpedo tubes, if not they can even offer a VLS in the subs which will require adding another section for Brahmos Vertical launch.

4. DCNS has a tie-up with Pipavav Shipyard which in turn has tie-up with MDL, this will make the future transfer of tech. much easier than the current case of P-75.

I think @sancho will be the right person to elaborate further.

 

[Dillinger]

@janon the torturous path was due to the difficulty of absorbing the state of the art tech. on the MDL's part. I strongly feel that IN will indeed go for Larger scorpene due to following points:

1. Since MDL has already absorbed the tech. of scorpenes, it would find very easy to build larger subs of these types in quicker time considering the needs of IN.

2. DCNS has now a proven AIP in MESMA.

3. For Brahmos - There was a video Posted by @sancho which demonstrated as to how DCNS has achieved success in land attack & anti-ac capability, launching missiles from torpedo tubes, if not they can even offer a VLS in the subs which will require adding another section for Brahmos Vertical launch.

4. DCNS has a tie-up with Pipavav Shipyard which in turn has tie-up with MDL, this will make the future transfer of tech. much easier than the current case of P-75.

I think @sancho will be the right person to elaborate further.

The problem was with the fabrication, the specs are obviously unique to the Scorpene and it took us a good 5 years to get it right. Verified personally that they got it down finally, can't find any talk of DAE though, 2 din se kafi curious hoon about the 180MW reactor DAE was working at. Besides log worry kyun maar rahein hain, nearly 20 years back we built type-209s on tot, we can build the scorpene's too. Problem is that we're sourcing so much of the sub-components in country that the industry really had to catch up.

 

[Sergi]

I would love to see Russian sub winning
But French Sub will be a good option too considering P-75 and P-75I together. Lets see what IN think