Funding defense projects

[UzaySan]

Edit: This post was originally in TFX thread. Its moved here
Reference: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/tf-x...rcraft-projects.256669/page-228#post-12302289

What is the alternative? To have a defence industry like that of Egypt?

Deep Turkey-Qatar cooperation allows Turkey to pursue expensive R&D projects. As somebody mentioned, Turkey is not an economic giant but still have defence projects in the league of very wealthy countries (France, UK, Germany etc.)

We can easily can fund defence projects if government dont use that money to feed its lickers.
Small example: City hospitals total cost are about one billion TL. And we rented them for 1 billion for a year. Half billion dollar money paid to Osman Gazi bridge every year. Every "mega" project is built with some usage guarantee and every year billions of dollar goes Trabzonian mutahits.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

We can easily can fund defence projects if government dont use that money to feed its lickers.
Small example: City hospitals total cost are about one billion TL. And we rented them for 1 billion for a year. Half billion dollar money paid to Osman Gazi bridge every year. Every "mega" project is built with some usage guarantee and every year billions of dollar goes Trabzonian mutahits.

Can you provide a source for this? The city hospitals and bridge.

We also got to consider the long term effects of these investments as well as the reasons for why these investments were made. An investment can lose money in it's early stages or short term, but usually infrastructure projects like these are never about making short term gains, sometimes it's not even about making any money at all and investments are made just to provide a service and add to efficiency. A Country or municipality can fully finance a bridge without expecting to make any money off of it, but just to provide a service. Normally a bridge like Osman Gazi etc. would've been fully financed by the country's budget, but the government chose the 'build-operate-transfer' style of financing. Even if they pay yearly usage money to those that built the bridge due to usage guarentee, this money is still way less than having to finance the whole bridge yourself. An investment like this is not just about money, it is also about saving time (efficiency) and reducing gas emmissions due to less distance traveled. This is all to the gain of the country. For instance, there were some critics when the two major bridges in Istanbul were being made, but decades later we can't imagine Istanbul without them right? They are the lifelines of Istanbul's traffic.

Projects like these are based on future projections, a couple of years ago I Google'd the amount of cars on Turkish roads and cars on Turkish roads increased by almost 1 million a year. Same goes for the population which has been increasing as well, this requires hospitals, roads, bridges, metro and all other types of infrastructure projects. We got to consider that Turkey is not a developed country as of yet, so there are still many infrastructure projects like these to come (this will have to be done by whoever is in charge governing the country, whether it is AKP, CHP, IP, etc.). Case in point, Istanbul, it switched from AKP to CHP right? But infrastructure projects like Metro, tram, etc. are still ongoing and new metro lines are still planned and projected.

When it comes to Qatar funding, as far as I know Qatar is only involved with BMC. This does not mean they own the rights or can steal or whatever. Qatar only holds 49% of BMC, they do not have the majority vote. And even if they did own 100% of BMC, it would still have been a Turkish company because owning shares does not make it foreign or domestic.

 

[UzaySan]

Can you provide a source for this? The city hospitals and bridge.

We pay 2.5 billion per year for Osman Gazi Bridge. And contracts are ussually at least 10 years. And we have seen 25 year contracts.
https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/...isi-olarak-2-5-milyar-tl-odenecek-268814h.htm


We payed 1.6 billion for Yavuz Sultan Selim Bridge. And that just only for the last half of the year. We Also payed 1.4 billion for the first six month. In total we payed 3 billion per year for just one bridge.
https://www.haberturk.com/ucuncu-kopruye-garanti-icin-16-milyar-lira-odenecek-2560230-ekonomi

We also payed 320 million for Avrasya Tunnel in last two years. And Its expected to be 300 billion for this year.
https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/avrasya-tunelinin-faturasi-yine-vatandasa-kaldi-269119h.htm

We are paying 8 billion per year for just 2 bridges one tunnel and one road.
https://www.haberturk.com/kopru-ve-otoyollara-78-milyar-tl-garanti-odemesi-2547639-ekonomi

We have 8 active City Hospitals right now (https://www.saglikaktuel.com/haber/...-acildi-2019da-3-tane-daha-acilacak-64831.htm)

According to this news yearly rent cost for 8 hospital is 10 billion. That makes 1.25 billion each per year.
https://www.milligazete.com.tr/habe...ra-yutuyor-yillik-kira-bedeli-104-milyar-lira

Its so familiar. Government also privitized Turk Telekom in 2005. They sold majority share to Saudi Arabia.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türk_Telekom

And we know They screwed the company. They give the company to Turkish banks because they couldnt pay dept.(they intentionally didnt pay. They robbed the company) .

And According to contact they suppossed to give company back after 25 years(2030) without any dept.

https://www.evrensel.net/yazi/82151/telekom-borcuna-karsilik-bankalara-devredildi-kusursuz-soygun

This is some little stories about how our government do bussines.

And 2 Days ago USD was 7.04. And yesterday ıt become 7.20. In just one day. And they started to bark. Ezan inmez, Bayrak sönmez. etc etc. Because we know fake religious promises are all they can offer now.

Normally ever central bank should have cash reserves about 1/4 of the Economy. 1 Trillion dolar Brasil has 250 billion cash. China has atleast 3 Trillion cash. What do we have? Our reserver are BELOW ZERO.
Where is that money? I will tel you. Its in yandaş peoples pocket.

http://www.mahfiegilmez.com/2020/05/swap-haric-rezervler-ekside.html

And Our governement spend 28 billion USD to keep USd below 7TL. But its now 7.20. And we spend that money for nothing.

Edit: USD is now 7.24. It broke its own record. Thats how shit our economy is

https://twitter.com/x/status/1255071350827474945

Ekonominin başına meşe kütüğü koysam daha iyi yönetir.

We also got to consider the long term effects of these investments as well as the reasons for why these investments were made. An investment can lose money in it's early stages or short term, but usually infrastructure projects like these are never about making short term gains, sometimes it's not even about making any money at all and investments are made just to provide a service and add to efficiency. A Country or municipality can fully finance a bridge without expecting to make any money off of it, but just to provide a service. Normally a bridge like Osman Gazi etc. would've been fully financed by the country's budget, but the government chose the 'build-operate-transfer' style of financing. Even if they pay yearly usage money to those that built the bridge due to usage guarentee, this money is still way less than having to finance the whole bridge yourself. An investment like this is not just about money, it is also about saving time (efficiency) and reducing gas emmissions due to less distance traveled. This is all to the gain of the country. For instance, there were some critics when the two major bridges in Istanbul were being made, but decades later we can't imagine Istanbul without them right? They are the lifelines of Istanbul's traffic.

I'm not against building roads. But when You can build one for x money, But you choose to make it build by someone else and pay x money for every year, No ofense but Either thats stupity or they have bad intension.

When it comes to Qatar funding, as far as I know Qatar is only involved with BMC. This does not mean they own the rights or can steal or whatever. Qatar only holds 49% of BMC, they do not have the majority vote. And even if they did own 100% of BMC, it would still have been a Turkish company because owning shares does not make it foreign or domestic.

I'm not against qatar making bussinesses with turkish companies or invest turkish companies. Read what the original guy said. He is talking about directly getting money from qatar.

What is the diference between buying subsystem from germany and getting money from qatar. Either way you are dependent.

I think the Turkish-Qatari relations will remain positive even after Tayyip. You don't invite the forces of another country just because you like one politician. And many new friendships will start right there too. In fact there would be more doors opening, than closing.

Oh. So by your logic our relations with USA is perfect because we have a US base in İncirlik. And they are using it.

El Sani family have been trustworthy since the Ottoman times....

They are foreign. We are just humans. Current leader dies and his son maybe become anti Turkish you cant know that.
What is the diference between Trusting Al-Thani family and trusting Trump family or Royal Family of UK. They are all foreign. they care about their own profits.

 

[Saithan]

Very good points. That's the consequences of allowing one political party rule the country.

Many of the infrastructure projects can be paid off by running them commercially. But ad you pointed out akp and rte chose to indebt TR.

 

[Glass]

The Turkish economy would have fully recovered this year if it wasnt for corona tho so there isnt really much u can do about since 60% of our exports go outside the EU and the EU might be activating again its engines but for us the whole world is important since our factories are exporting to more and more countries world wide.

The debt question for example is also rather overblown because we actually saw that the private companies were in the process of gradually lowering their debt and public debt is low anyways. I think the funding question is justified but its certainly not a big topic as people want to make it to be because we do not look at these things in the short term but in the mid to long term and things as they stand today are the way they are duo to something which no one expected to happen in the first place.

The Turkish economy recovery therefor will be postponed to 2021 but that will have limited effects on the grand scheme of things.

 

[damm1t]

When some PDF economists talk that our economy is shit and Dolar is 7,24 they don't mention that some UK based international banks do night operations in TL by buying huge amount of Lira that they don't have. They "Temerrüde düştüler" ( IdontfvckingknowitsEnglish) and today BDDK have banned Citibank, BNP Paribas and UBS from operations in Lira currency. THIS IS A FVCKING SABOTAGE. And we have been dealing with this shıt for 3-4 years including Trump's Pastor Branson TL operations.
One thing is for sure, we are not perfect nor our economy is. But saying "kütük" would run the economy better is BS. Lot's of people here have only social media level economy knowledge and think they know the best.

 

[UkroTurk]

Why does Türkiye's economy need to recover? There were some problems? We had sold dollars and converted Liras as son-in-law adivised.

 

[Glass]

When some PDF economists talk that our economy is shit and Dolar is 7,24 they don't mention that some UK based international banks do night operations in TL by buying huge amount of Lira that they don't have. They "Temerrüde düştüler" ( IdontfvckingknowitsEnglish) and today BDDK have banned Citibank, BNP Paribas and UBS from operations in Lira currency. THIS IS A FVCKING SABOTAGE. And we have been dealing with this shıt for 3-4 years including Trump's Pastor Branson TL operations.
One thing is for sure, we are not perfect nor our economy is. But saying "kütük" would run the economy better is BS. Lot's of people here have only social media level economy knowledge and think they know the best.

fullscale lira manipulation attempt I believe from the UAE via the UK, they did the same thing in 2018, tried it in 2019 and failed and tried it today again, as far as I can see they are failing again.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258379815712940032

 

[UkroTurk]

From 1.800.000 to 1.8 who were guilty?
From 1.8 to 3 whowas the responsible?
From 3 to 4 which external powers involved?
From 4 to 5 which traitors made ?
From 5 to 6 which alleign undermined?
From 6 to 7 satanists rose?
From 7 to 8 Who would be guilty?

Poor international traders , they again happen to be scapegoat. If they speculate your currency, just dont sell them your debts! Easy.

 

[Constantin84]

fullscale lira manipulation attempt I believe from the UAE via the UK, they did the same thing in 2018, tried it in 2019 and failed and tried it today again, as far as I can see they are failing again.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258379815712940032

They actually won already as Turkey burned its reserves to defend the lira.You can bring it back to 7 but at what cost ? Tens of billions $ wiped out.

 

[Glass]

They actually won already as Turkey burned its reserves to defend the lira.You can bring it back to 7 but at what cost ? Tens of billions $ wiped out.

Thats what developing countries do, burning their reserves to keep their currency steady.

 

[Constantin84]

Thats what developing countries do, burning their reserves to keep their currency steady.

Turkey was defending the 7 per dollar threshold which was a total waste.

 

[ANMDT]

Can you provide a source for this? The city hospitals and bridge.

We also got to consider the long term effects of these investments as well as the reasons for why these investments were made. An investment can lose money in it's early stages or short term, but usually infrastructure projects like these are never about making short term gains, sometimes it's not even about making any money at all and investments are made just to provide a service and add to efficiency. A Country or municipality can fully finance a bridge without expecting to make any money off of it, but just to provide a service. Normally a bridge like Osman Gazi etc. would've been fully financed by the country's budget, but the government chose the 'build-operate-transfer' style of financing. Even if they pay yearly usage money to those that built the bridge due to usage guarentee, this money is still way less than having to finance the whole bridge yourself. An investment like this is not just about money, it is also about saving time (efficiency) and reducing gas emmissions due to less distance traveled. This is all to the gain of the country. For instance, there were some critics when the two major bridges in Istanbul were being made, but decades later we can't imagine Istanbul without them right? They are the lifelines of Istanbul's traffic.

Projects like these are based on future projections, a couple of years ago I Google'd the amount of cars on Turkish roads and cars on Turkish roads increased by almost 1 million a year. Same goes for the population which has been increasing as well, this requires hospitals, roads, bridges, metro and all other types of infrastructure projects. We got to consider that Turkey is not a developed country as of yet, so there are still many infrastructure projects like these to come (this will have to be done by whoever is in charge governing the country, whether it is AKP, CHP, IP, etc.). Case in point, Istanbul, it switched from AKP to CHP right? But infrastructure projects like Metro, tram, etc. are still ongoing and new metro lines are still planned and projected.

When it comes to Qatar funding, as far as I know Qatar is only involved with BMC. This does not mean they own the rights or can steal or whatever. Qatar only holds 49% of BMC, they do not have the majority vote. And even if they did own 100% of BMC, it would still have been a Turkish company because owning shares does not make it foreign or domestic.

PPI city hospitals were a rip off, minister of health indicated that new city hospitals will be built by using the budget. That clearly means the PPI city hospitals has costed more than expected and ministry of health has switched the funding method.
https://www.bbc.com/turkce/haberler-turkiye-50570562

Newly build PPI tunnels, bridges and highways are far than being affordable for the public. i don't know what is your income level but 90-95 percent of the population can not even dare to use those newly build highways, bridges or tunnels; the worse is that price is set in dollars and private companies never concern about having enough customers, since the state will pay for the difference so why should they?
I personally used those roads in different occasions and different times (all because my company has paid for that, i wouldnt use for personal reasons unless otherwise), even before holidays those roads were empty. It is needed, yes, but state could afford to build them by its own and set affordable prices and keep the wheel running.
Those projects should have been built by PPI without any conditions on amount of passes, so that the private companies would have been have to reduce prices to attract people and pay their debts on their own, instead of setting high prices for keeping maintenance costs low.

Not mentioning airports built by PPI, and costing dozen millions of dollars yearly.
https://tr.sputniknews.com/ekonomi/...uzde-dort-zafer-havalimani-yolcu-milyon-euro/

Should i even note that, the laws regarding to the public projects have been changed on monthly basis in last 15 years.
https://www.birgun.net/haber/ihale-kanunu-187-ayda-186-kere-degistirildi-216485

In sum: i dont say that those projects shouldn't have been constructed, but i say those projects should have been built considering wealth of the state, not wealth of some subcontractors. So that we would be saving enough money for the bad days.
People who concerns on the sources being sputnik, bbc or birgun: those sources are also referring to direct statement of minister, state or records on resmi gazete, dont care with the commentary sections in the articles.

PS: state could easily afford osmangazi bridge, or avrasya tunnel as they have already afforded marmaray. Or contracts could have been such that it ensures public actively uses those assets in daily basis. avrasya tunnel isnt an infastracture project as large scale- long term osmangazi bridge, it solely focuses on istanbul and its traffic regulation issue, aims shorter term attractions but still not used actively as planned.
Even if osmangazi bridge- 3rd bridge- izmir highway starts to pay off the minimum required amount, the public still wont be able to use them due to high prices.

 

[Glass]

Turkey was defending the 7 per dollar threshold which was a total waste.

Remains to be seen, as of now the lira gains on value again and in order for us to really have a steady and safe currency we need to fight the causes for the volatility and these are connected to corruption, the trade deficit and an independent central bank which would also give foreign markets trust and confidence in our currency. Corruption is difficult and will remain difficult, central bank will probably be independent again in the near future and if it wasnt for corona tbh, we probably wouldnt have a trade deficit by 2022. Especially as energy prices are on historic downward course so it really remains to be seen but giving any predictions is risky, especially when it comes to the turkish one. Last year it was expected that we would be running to the IMF with the economy contracting by 1.5% yet we grow on 0.9% and no IMF.

 

[Saithan]

I’ve given this example once, but the bridge connecting Denmark to Sweden was paid off by transit alone in less than 30 years I think it was below 20 years.

Now they’re building tunnel under water to germany trust me it will be paid off on transit alone.