French FM offers India 1 bn to fund projects, as Rafale talks stall

[spectribution]

India needs to a get a firm grip on this matter and move ahead as soon as possible，for China is scheduled to formally induct J-20（Status A）in 2016。

Not to mention 3-5 regiments of J-10Bs and J-10Cs by 2017.

Defence budget may be increased by 20%.

 

[Screambowl]

lol, drama starts again... they want BRIBES now.

 

[indoPunjabi]

There's no end to rafael discussion. Bhai lena hai to deal sign karo nahi lena to negotions band karo. Roz roz rafael deal pe article Likh ke hume mat pakao.

 

[Sam.]

The hell with this deal :|

They need to set a timeframe like "You have 2 months to finish this deal or we scratch it"

now india has few options

1. take the deal as french want it
2. modify the deal and reduce the order
3.buy russian Su-35 with latest sries AL-41F engines with AESA radar and other goodies
4.or simply exlarate tejas program & set up moreproduction facalities with help of private players and invest its money to have 4 LCAs(with AESA) at the price of one rafale

lets see the picture willbe clear onliafter couple of months

Best option is 4

 

[Indischer]

Then whole point of MRCA was NOT to depend on one country for all our needs. If we had to buy Su-35 we could have simply ordered MiG-35. All aircraft met the criteria by default but the bidding was just to see who could be a strong strategic partner.

It is funny why France is not budging considering that they hardly have customers while EFT and Gripen are still looking for the deal so seriously despite having global customer base.

If we got anything Russian now, IAF will be the second Russian air force on earth.

We need a mix of foreign and Indian made fighters. Don't forget that.

I believe HAL has again been a spanner in the works....the price quoted seems exorbitant too, like all French products. But at least the quality will be guaranteed. HAL wants Dassault to guarantee the date of delivery of jets manufactured at HAL, something which Dassault rightly declines to agree to. It knows HAL and it's workings all too well to fall into that trap.

 

[slapshot]

i guess deep down there is a feeling seeping in the western defnce contractors that india might not be that good "coustmer" as it was under "sonia & co raj"

I think bold part is more then enough Its been more then a decade and still stuck

 

[sancho]

now india has few options

1. take the deal as french want it
2. modify the deal and reduce the order
3.buy russian Su-35 with latest sries AL-41F engines with AESA radar and other goodies
4.or simply exlarate tejas program & set up moreproduction facalities with help of private players and invest its money to have 4 LCAs(with AESA) at the price of one rafale

lets see the picture willbe clear onliafter couple of months

None of these points are an option!

1) The is no need for us to play it like the French wants, the RFP regulations were clear, Dassault accepted them by entering the competition. If they now would not accknoledge them, it only means they don't comply to the RFP and therefore we would turn the negotiations to the L2!

2) reduction of the order is complete nonsense brought up by an unreliable source. It would make the unit costs higher, not lower! Would reduce the ToT and industrial benefits, contrary to the goal of the MMRCA competition and would make a production in India less worth the investments of our industry.

3) Su 35 is heavy class not medium class, it has PESA not an AESA and is purely single seat, while the RFP requires twin seaters as part of each MMRCA squadron too. But most of all, except of 3D TVC, it offers nothing we might not get through MKI upgrade either, so has no importance for India.

4) The usual "naiv" solutions, as if more money and private industry can counter the lack of experience, design and project management capabilities in India. The fact remains that LCA as a project is delayed and faced with problems that CAN'T be simply resolved, which is why the MK2 according to current estimates will only would be operational by 2018/19 and with the past experience of the project, further delays would not be surprising. So betting on LCA as an alternative for MMRCA, although MMRCA was only invented because if the delays of the LCA project is not logical.
The flyaway cost of LCA MK1 is estimated around $26 millions today, the MK2 with AESA and all will come well above $30 millions, while a Rafale costs around $94 million flyaway for France and possibly $76 million for India, without additional taxes. So the ratio is more like 2.5 to 3 x LCA MK2s for 1 x Rafale, the problem is only, that a single Rafale would do the same job, that IAF needs 3 to 4 x LCA MK2s instead (2 x to carry similar strike loads, 1 to 2 x for escort duties because of the limited self defence capability of LCA). That means, buying more LCAs for the same money, doesn't necessarily mean it is an advantage in operational terms too.

 

[GURU DUTT]

None of these points are an option!

1) The is no need for us to play it like the French wants, the RFP regulations were clear, Dassault accepted them by entering the competition. If they now would not accknoledge them, it only means they don't comply to the RFP and therefore we would turn the negotiations to the L2!

2) reduction of the order is complete nonsense brought up by an unreliable source. It would make the unit costs higher, not lower! Would reduce the ToT and industrial benefits, contrary to the goal of the MMRCA competition and would make a production in India less worth the investments of our industry.

3) Su 35 is heavy class not medium class, it has PESA not an AESA and is purely single seat, while the RFP requires twin seaters as part of each MMRCA squadron too. But most of all, except of 3D TVC, it offers nothing we might not get through MKI upgrade either, so has no importance for India.

4) The usual "naiv" solutions, as if more money and private industry can counter the lack of experience, design and project management capabilities in India. The fact remains that LCA as a project is delayed and faced with problems that CAN'T be simply resolved, which is why the MK2 according to current estimates will only would be operational by 2018/19 and with the past experience of the project, further delays would not be surprising. So betting on LCA as an alternative for MMRCA, although MMRCA was only invented because if the delays of the LCA project is not logical.
The flyaway cost of LCA MK1 is estimated around $26 millions today, the MK2 with AESA and all will come well above $30 millions, while a Rafale costs around $94 million flyaway for France and possibly $76 million for India, without additional taxes. So the ratio is more like 2.5 to 3 x LCA MK2s for 1 x Rafale, the problem is only, that a single Rafale would do the same job, that IAF needs 3 to 4 x LCA MK2s instead (2 x to carry similar strike loads, 1 to 2 x for escort duties because of the limited self defence capability of LCA). That means, buying more LCAs for the same money, doesn't necessarily mean it is an advantage in operational terms too.

a very good answer i must say ...thanks and congrats for it sir

but i guess things will change and are changing as per delay of LCA lets see what new govt will do on this front

as for rafale iguess we dont need it since PLAAF is already going of 1500 4th gen (with ASEA) and at least two types of 5th gen and we cant match them on numbers so we have no option but to go for 5th gen rather dragging owr feat on rafale its too late now

the options we have are either FGFA & PAKFA and AURA all else i dont think is capable enof to tostop any chinese agresion

so bottomline is either we go for 5th gen with help of both russian & japnese and if possible the israelies

I think bold part is more then enough Its been more then a decade and still stuck

well you are right but still western contractors need cash and Indian contracts are not that easy to ignore ... u know what i mean dont ya

 

[sancho]

as per delay of LCA lets see what new govt will do on this front

What should they do? They can't fix the problems the designers and managers did on their own right? So they can only do what the former government did as well, urge the scientists and managers to finally get things in order and deliver what they promised!

as for rafale iguess we dont need it since PLAAF is already going of 1500 4th gen (with ASEA) and at least two types of 5th gen and we cant match them on numbers

We don't need to match their numbers, we need a fleet of fighters that is able to defend the country with offensive or defensive actions and the Rafale (as well as the EF offered to India) offers capabilities to do that.