France offers Belgium Rafale jets and close partnership

[Cell_DbZ]

France offers Belgium Rafale jets and close partnership
By: Pierre Tran   20:09

Two Rafale fighter jets fly during a mission over Iraq. French jets carried out their first air strike against Islamic State militants in Iraq on September 19, 2014. (Jean-Luc Brunet/AFP/Getty Images)

PARIS — France evoked the spirit of European defense in a broad government-to-government offer on Thursday of not only the Rafale in Belgium’s fighter jet tender but also broad bilateral cooperation in operations, training and service.

“Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly proposed to the defense minister of the Kingdom of Belgium establishing a deep partnership between our two countries in response to [a] requirement of the Belgian Air Force,” the ministry said in a statement.

The proposed partnership went far beyond equipment and spoke to ancient ties between the two countries, the ministry said. “It will strengthen European defence and its strategic autonomy at a time when this is more necessary than ever,” the ministry said.



The French offer, seen as a bid to compete with Lockheed Martin’s F-35 joint strike fighter, includes industrial and technological cooperation with Belgium, as well.

“Dassault Aviation and its partners offer to the economic partners in the three Belgian regions, a medium- and long-term cooperation strategy that will truly structure the future of … Belgian industry and that will enhance … European defense,” Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, said in a statement.

Belgium is seeking 34 fighters to replace a fleet of 54 F-16s. Sweden in July pulled the Saab Gripen out of the competition, reported to be worth €3.6 billion (U.S. $4.3 billion). That leaves Lockheed’s F-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon as direct competitors in the tender. Belgium has agreed to acquire armored vehicles from the French Army’s Scorpion modernization program, the French ministry said in June.

Belgium’s planned procurement is worth €1.1 billion (U.S. $1.3 billion), business publication L’Usine Nouvelle reported. Dassault has nine Belgian subsidiary companies, employs more than 3,000 local staff and places annual orders worth more than €800 million (U.S. $960 million), the company said.

http://www.defensenews.com/smr/euro...rs-belgium-rafale-jets-and-close-partnership/

Another article to back this up:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...its-army-with-rafale-war-planes-idUSKCN1BI1ZX

 

[Vergennes]

@Cell_DbZ Everyone had the feeling that the F-35 was the favourite even before the competition was launched. (It was deemed that Belgium's requests were made so that only the F-35 could comply)

Several candidates have already gave up.

How is this offer going to fare against the F-35 pushed by the Americans and the Dutch that are willing to continue the cooperation between the two air forces ? Hard to say.

The winner is already known. I could be wrong though.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

How is this offer going to fare against the F-35 pushed by the Americans and the Dutch that are willing to continue the cooperation between the two air forces ? Hard to say.

If we Belgians would choose the Rafale, I think it would be a choice with some political context: more Europe, less Usa, as there have been several prominent politicians calling for 'less America' (beacause Trump). Having the Rafale would have some advatages, like less maitenance costs and perhaps a future program for a new jet fighter (Airbus).
The Rafale has political support in Belgium, something the Eurofighter can't really say, you could say this is a little Flanders (F-35) vs Walloons (Rafale).

The French also offer a close cooperation, meaning that they are possibly able to help Belgium with the extendend support it needs (reason why Sweden pulled out), it obviously will not be able to carry B-61 nukes, but apparantly Boeing doesn't offer the 'pin code' for the F-35, meaning that the Usa could technically 'turn off' the Belgian F-35
(Please note that my knowledge is poor in this regard.), perhaps the French would offer said 'pin code'?

The winner is already known. I could be wrong though.

I still agree with you, the F-35 does fill in the most requirements, combine this with Dutch pressure and the strong lobby, the F-35 seems to be the successor of the F-16, however, the Rafale is not completely chanceless as it also has political support.

 

[Vergennes]

@Cell_DbZ It seems like Belgium wants to retain the nuclear capacity on the future aircraft (B-61s) and this criteria is favouriting American jets,so the F-35. Other aircrafts didn't stand a chance at all.

A part from the F-35,the Rafale can well conduct nuclear deterrant missions,but only carries the ASMP/A,dedicated to the French deterrant and hardly exportable.

Integrating the B-61 on the Rafale appears politically unrealistic and financially expensive.

 

[Penguin]

BAF has flown Mirages in the past, besides F-16. One doesn't rule out the other, necessarily, as far as F-35 and Rafale are concerned. Nuke options aside. Question: why exactly couldn't Rafale drop B-61s? After all, they are compatible with British, German and Italian Panavia Tornado IDS.... See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

In May 2010 the National Nuclear Security Administration asked Congress for $40 million to redesign the bomb to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to carry the weapon internally by 2017. This version is designated Mod 12. The four hundred B61-12 bombs will be used by both tactical aircraft (such as the F-35) and strategic aircraft (such as the B-2) and the Tail Subassembly (TSA) will give them Joint Direct Attack Munition levels of accuracy, allowing the fifty kiloton warhead to have strategic effects from all carrying aircraft. However, refitting the 400 weapons is now expected to cost over $10 billion. The B61 Mod 12 tail assembly contract was awarded to Boeing on November 27, 2012 for $178 million. Boeing will use their experience with the Joint Direct Attack Munition to yield JDAM equivalent accuracy in a nuclear bomb. This contract is only the first part of the billion dollar expense of producing and applying the tail kits, over and above the $10 billion cost to refurbish the warheads. The B61-12 uses an internal guidance system and can glide to its target. The bomb has four selectable yields: 0.3; 5; 10; and 50 kilotons.[24] On 1 July 2015, the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) conducted the first of three flight tests of the B61-12 tail kit assembly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb#Mod_12

If the bombs are made more like JDAM, then won't integration with non-US tactical aircraft become more easy? Besides US jets, JDAM is currently compatible with:

• AMX International AMX
• Mitsubishi F-2
• Panavia Tornado
• Mirage F-1
• Saab JAS 39 Gripen
• A-29 Super Tucano
• KAI FA-50

 

[T-123456]

@Cell_DbZ Everyone had the feeling that the F-35 was the favourite even before the competition was launched. (It was deemed that Belgium's requests were made so that only the F-35 could comply)

Several candidates have already gave up.

How is this offer going to fare against the F-35 pushed by the Americans and the Dutch that are willing to continue the cooperation between the two air forces ? Hard to say.

The winner is already known. I could be wrong though.

Any plans to develop 5th gen by France?

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Question: why exactly couldn't Rafale drop B-61s? After all, they are compatible with British, German and Italian Panavia Tornado IDS....

I am not too sure either, but I think the Rafale isn't designed to carry any ohter nuke than the ASMP
Integrating the B-61 could be costly and perhaps politically unfeasable.
@Vergennes


'There remains the case of the French Rafale. This aircraft, which its manufacturer describes as "omnirole," is capable of carrying a nuclear weapon, this is the ASMP-A missile (improved medium range air-to-ground missile), developed in France for France’s nuclear forces, and thus not easily exportable. As for the integration of the American B-61 on the Rafale, it appears as politically unrealistic and financially costly, say industrialists and experts.'
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...ve-to-f_35-if-belgium-keeps-nuke-mission.html

Any plans to develop 5th gen by France?

There are some plans, but I don't think we will see it happening too soon.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...to-build-their-own-5th-generation-fighter-jet

 

[Penguin]

I am not too sure either, but I think the Rafale isn't designed to carry any ohter nuke than the ASMP Integrating the B-61 could be costly and perhaps politically unfeasable.
@Vergennes

For crying out loud, it is an unguided gravity bomb! The B61-12 can be deployed from dual-capable fighter aircraft. Why wouldn't Rafale be able to carry it? Tornado's can!

'There remains the case of the French Rafale. This aircraft, which its manufacturer describes as "omnirole," is capable of carrying a nuclear weapon, this is the ASMP-A missile (improved medium range air-to-ground missile), developed in France for France’s nuclear forces, and thus not easily exportable. As for the integration of the American B-61 on the Rafale, it appears as politically unrealistic and financially costly, say industrialists and experts.'
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...ve-to-f_35-if-belgium-keeps-nuke-mission.html

Just because France only equips Rafale with nuclear tipped ASMP rather than free fall nuclear bombs, doesn't mean Rafale can't handle the latter. Again: why would it be not possible? Why would it be costly?

Politically realistic, well, that's another discussion: depends on the threat level and the desire for Americans and French to try and block or one-up the other.

Note: F-16 and Panavia Tornado aircraft cannot interface with the new bomb (B61-12) due to electronic differences, but NATO countries that are buying the F-35 will be able to utilize it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Just because France only equips Rafale with nuclear tipped ASMP rather than free fall nuclear bombs, doesn't mean Rafale can't handle the latter. Again: why would it be not possible? Why would it be costly?

I'm afraid I don't know either and I was just speculating, perhaps @gambit can answer this? I really don't know.

Note: F-16 and Panavia Tornado aircraft cannot interface with the new bomb (B61-12) due to electronic differences, but NATO countries that are buying the F-35 will be able to utilize it.

Perhaps the Rafale also has electronic differences? I am just guessing here.

I think that it is politics that would be standing in the way the most.

 

[RISING SUN]

For crying out loud, it is an unguided gravity bomb! The B61-12 can be deployed from dual-capable fighter aircraft. Why wouldn't Rafale be able to carry it? Tornado's can!


Just because France only equips Rafale with nuclear tipped ASMP rather than free fall nuclear bombs, doesn't mean Rafale can't handle the latter. Again: why would it be not possible? Why would it be costly?

Politically realistic, well, that's another discussion: depends on the threat level and the desire for Americans and French to try and block or one-up the other.

Note: F-16 and Panavia Tornado aircraft cannot interface with the new bomb (B61-12) due to electronic differences, but NATO countries that are buying the F-35 will be able to utilize it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

Rafale is going to take over the role of strategic platform for nuclear bomb delivery in Indian military. And it will be Indian bombs, not ASMP. So I believe Belgian military will be able to use their stocks as well. Thank you.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Turns out there is no offer from France, just a letter.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...larity-over-french-bid-for-fighter-de-440970/

Belgium seeks clarity over French bid for fighter deal

Belgium is exploring the legal status of a last-minute French response to its request for proposals covering the acquisition of new combat aircraft.

In a letter from Florence Parly, the French armed forces minister, to her Belgian counterpart, Steven Vandeput, on 7 September, she promised to create a "deep partnership" between the two countries if the Dassault Rafale is selected for the 34-unit deal.

To take the form of a bilateral agreement, the collaboration would include a deeper industrial and technical contribution to the Rafale programme, as well as "in-depth co-operation" between the air forces of both nations in operations, training and support.

However, the Belgian defence ministry confirms that aside from the letter from Parly, there has been no formal response from the French side.

"Two offers have been introduced following the procedures, and there is this letter. We need to investigate what it means; we have asked for an offer and got a letter," says the defence ministry.

It is seeking clarity on the "legal status" of the letter, it says.

The two concrete responses are from the governments of the UK and USA, respectively bidding the Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin F-35.

Belgium will now analyse those bids, ahead of a mid-February 2018 deadline for the submission of best and final offers; it hopes to be in a position to select the winning type in mid-2018.

Brussels intends to acquire the new aircraft in several batches as it progressively retires the 59 Lockheed Martin F-16A/Bs operated by the Belgian Air Component.