What's new

For history buffs: Roman Empire and chinese Han Empire

There is an exhibition in Fireze right now that shows artifacts of contacts between Roman Empire and the chinese Han Empire. Its super interesting. Goods were traded on the silk route between Rome and China.

It was emperor Marcus Aurelius who established some kind of diplomatic relations between the two great empires and send a delegation to China and China send a delegation to Rome.

Historians say this contacts were unique i world history because the enormous distance and that both empires were so far away from each other.

There was greatest respect from both sides for each other. Rome saw China as only equal in the world.

And same counted for China. China saw the Roman Empire as its western counter part.

Letters written between the emperors are extremly rare and super important for historians.

As far we know today no roman emperor and chinese emperor ever have meet in person but i guess that would have been a big thing back then.

timthumb.php.jpeg

Marcus Aurelius was an Stoic, a strong proponent of reason and nature. He said, "the rational animal is consequently also a political (social) animal."

I guess his naturalism, reason/logic-orientation, this-worldliness (to be destroyed soon after him with Rome becoming empire and then Holy Roman Empire) matched perfectly well with China's own pragmatist, worldly, and secular culture.
 
.
Well mark antony was a great tactical general,but a bad strategist.He didn't pay attention to logistics at all ,which is why his campaign ended in failure despite him winning every tactical engagement.Augustus on the other hand was a great organizer,and for field battles he had 2 great generals -Agrippa(who defeated antony) and Tiberius and Germanicus later.Roman armies well led could defeat parthian armies comprehensively ,which publius ventidius bassus(one of caesar's generals) had proved after carrhae despite outnumbered.Parthians accepted peace because they knew augustus could be appeased by returning the eagles to satisfy roman honour.A symbolic gesture with little material loss except some prestige was far better than a new roman army,now with no distractions or civil war(augustus supreme ruler now, whereas antony left and never returned because he had to prepare for war agianst augustus) coming at them.Remember at this point in time Rome didn't have to station large number of legions in britannia and germany,so augustus could mobilize 20 legions plus auxillaries from gaul,greece,germania,numidia,egypt,thrace and asia minor if he wanted to ,which would have been a great threat.Augustus got his eagles and roman honour back and had a secure eastern flank and could concentrate on the balkans and germania and lat bits of spain.Parthia avoided a very dangerous war and had a secure west flank.Both got benefits.
I know Augustus was a good organiser and talented manager but I really doubt Augustus could bring legions from the west to bear on Parthia, that would be very dangerous for the empires security, the disaster at the Teutoburg forest took place during Augustus's reign. In fact fighting along the Danube and Rhine rivers never stopped. The only reason more conflicts like the Cimbrian war never took place was because the legions were on the border, if removed, you'd have full scale barbarian invasion on your hands.
Second assuming there was no threat from Germanic tribes across the borders which I consider unlikely, the legions still couldn't be moved for fear of internal rebellion, if there were no legions, there was practically nothing stopping the local tribes from revolt or local governors vying for the throne.
Now dealing with the actual campaign itself there are a number of problems which the Romans would run into regardless of how good the commander leading them is. The first being logistics. The Parthians repeatedly utilized a scorched earth policy, basically forcing the Romans to depend on supply trains, which the deeper they penetrated into Persia the longer they would become, and the longer they would become the more vulnerable they would become, Antony's baggage train was repeatedly raided, and two legions were taken as prisoners of war.
Another problem the scorched earth policy brought was how big a an army the Romans could bring to field, the bigger the army they fielded the bigger the supply train, from what I know the 100,000 troops Antony took were already large by Roman standards, increasing the size of the army would be unfeasible, it would be expensive, and have dangerous supply issues. Then the problem of the route, Mesopotamia was usually avoided in favor of Armenia who's hilly terrain negated the Parthian cavalry's mobility. Beyond Armenia though the terrain generally became more open, and at this point they would be deep into Persian territory with very long supply lines.
Then there were issues like who would lead the army? Any general given command could easily proclaim himself emperor and march on Rome itself, leading to civil war, and if Augustus personally lead the army then the west would be unprotected.
Trajans solution was to take ships town the Euphrates which was successful, but beyond Mesopotamia he'd face the same problems other Roman generals would face, and its important to remember he ruled during a stable and prosperous period of Roman history, even then his successor Hadrian gave up Mesopotamia and Armenia to The Parthians because they were simply to expensive and too far away to hold. For these reasons I think Augustus couldn't have threatened Parthia with a major invasion, from what ive read about him he was very averse to war with the Parthians and vice versa, the return of the eagles was a goodwill gesture as part of a peace agreement that was formed on equal terms.
 
.
I know Augustus was a good organiser and talented manager but I really doubt Augustus could bring legions from the west to bear on Parthia, that would be very dangerous for the empires security, the disaster at the Teutoburg forest took place during Augustus's reign. In fact fighting along the Danube and Rhine rivers never stopped. The only reason more conflicts like the Cimbrian war never took place was because the legions were on the border, if removed, you'd have full scale barbarian invasion on your hands.
Second assuming there was no threat from Germanic tribes across the borders which I consider unlikely, the legions still couldn't be moved for fear of internal rebellion, if there were no legions, there was practically nothing stopping the local tribes from revolt or local governors vying for the throne.
Now dealing with the actual campaign itself there are a number of problems which the Romans would run into regardless of how good the commander leading them is. The first being logistics. The Parthians repeatedly utilized a scorched earth policy, basically forcing the Romans to depend on supply trains, which the deeper they penetrated into Persia the longer they would become, and the longer they would become the more vulnerable they would become, Antony's baggage train was repeatedly raided, and two legions were taken as prisoners of war.
Another problem the scorched earth policy brought was how big a an army the Romans could bring to field, the bigger the army they fielded the bigger the supply train, from what I know the 100,000 troops Antony took were already large by Roman standards, increasing the size of the army would be unfeasible, it would be expensive, and have dangerous supply issues. Then the problem of the route, Mesopotamia was usually avoided in favor of Armenia who's hilly terrain negated the Parthian cavalry's mobility. Beyond Armenia though the terrain generally became more open, and at this point they would be deep into Persian territory with very long supply lines.
Then there were issues like who would lead the army? Any general given command could easily proclaim himself emperor and march on Rome itself, leading to civil war, and if Augustus personally lead the army then the west would be unprotected.
Trajans solution was to take ships town the Euphrates which was successful, but beyond Mesopotamia he'd face the same problems other Roman generals would face, and its important to remember he ruled during a stable and prosperous period of Roman history, even then his successor Hadrian gave up Mesopotamia and Armenia to The Parthians because they were simply to expensive and too far away to hold. For these reasons I think Augustus couldn't have threatened Parthia with a major invasion, from what ive read about him he was very averse to war with the Parthians and vice versa, the return of the eagles was a goodwill gesture as part of a peace agreement that was formed on equal terms.

Are you angry that your germanic DNA Claim proved to be wrong?
 
.
Apparently the Book of Later Han has a few valuable and very positive descriptions of Roman Empire based on some envoys:

It’s territ extended for several thousand li (Chinese measures of distance). They have established postal relays at intervals, which are all plastered and whitewashed. There are pines and cypresses, as well as trees and plants of all kinds. It has more than four hundred walled towns. There are several tens of dependent kingdoms. The walls of the towns are made of stones.

Based on the description, one can clearly see Han China has viewed Rome as a highly advanced civilization, which is highly admirable from Chinese perspective. That’s also why Rome has got a (Da =Great) in its Chinese name.
 
.
There is an exhibition in Fireze right now that shows artifacts of contacts between Roman Empire and the chinese Han Empire. Its super interesting. Goods were traded on the silk route between Rome and China.

It was emperor Marcus Aurelius who established some kind of diplomatic relations between the two great empires and send a delegation to China and China send a delegation to Rome.

Historians say this contacts were unique i world history because the enormous distance and that both empires were so far away from each other.

There was greatest respect from both sides for each other. Rome saw China as only equal in the world.

And same counted for China. China saw the Roman Empire as its western counter part.

Letters written between the emperors are extremly rare and super important for historians.

As far we know today no roman emperor and chinese emperor ever have meet in person but i guess that would have been a big thing back then.

timthumb.php.jpeg
Wrong.

No chinese envoys ever reached the roman empire.

The furthest a chinese envoy got close was a port city somewhere along the persian gulf. Icant rem which, but thats what my memiry tells me
 
. . .
Wrong.

No chinese envoys ever reached the roman empire.

The furthest a chinese envoy got close was a port city somewhere along the persian gulf. Icant rem which, but thats what my memiry tells me
Yes the name of the ambassador was Gan Ying. He did not reach Rome and only travelled to the Parthian coast of Persian Gulf. He was misled by local sailors that the journey was too dangerous and he returned without reaching Rome. Had he knew how close he was to Roman Empire, he would finish the epic journey. What a shame.
 
.
btw

this shit was best the persians were capable to do:

parthian_surena.jpg


Meanwhile in Rome

statue_of_a_woman_by_shapeshifter77-d4pyxdt.jpg


Equestrian_statue_of_Marcus_Aurelius%2C_Rome.jpg



The Persians did never reach that level of art. Their statues always appeared clumsy and rather primitive. Do you have an explanation for that?

This is a military forum. Statues are not going to win a war.

Show me some Roman artifacts comparible to the ones below in terms of quality, technology level, fit and finish. Keep in mind the sword shown below is over 2000 years old, still retains sharpness. Please keep everything within its proper historical context and time period. Posting examples of equivalent technology that came centuries later doesn't count.


Sword of Goujian
Spring and Autumn period (771 to 403 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian
K2fwsyr.jpg


Spear of Fuchai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Fuchai
13dx2RK.jpg


Mass production of bronze crossbow trigger mechanism, Qin Dynasty (221-206 BCE). This shows high level mechanical engineering, metallurgy, and mass production at the same time.
Izc5PYo.jpg


21st century China.
5R0Ivq7.jpg
 
.
Roman soldier had mass production of quality body armor, so did China.
scKqqUL.jpg


Those thin metal strips would never stop a crossbow bolt. There's nothing technologically advanced about a wooden shield.
YWFhgKp.jpg
 
.
Sorry for off-topic but this adopted troll from Italy keeps insulting different nations, he needs to be taught a lesson.

Latin is dead, Persian is a beautiful language that still lives despite the the invasions and destruction its people has faced.
 
.
This is a military forum. Statues are not going to win a war.

Show me some Roman artifacts comparible to the ones below in terms of quality, technology level, fit and finish. Keep in mind the sword shown below is over 2000 years old, still retains sharpness.


Sword of Goujian
Spring and Autumn period (771 to 403 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian
K2fwsyr.jpg


Spear of Fuchai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Fuchai
13dx2RK.jpg


Mass production of bronze crossbow trigger mechanism, Qin Dynasty (221-206 BCE). This shows high level mechanical engineering and mass production at the same time.
Izc5PYo.jpg
Han dynasty (206 BC–220 AD) extensively developed new instrumentations and many of the weapons were an extension of the Warring States period and Qin Dynasty.

As metallurgy improved Han Dynasty relied primarily on iron lamellar armour for its foot soldiers.
han-dynasty-battle-armor.jpg

Han_iron_armour_-_Hohhot.jpg

Han_armour_2.jpg
Up_close_iron_strip_armour.jpg


Qin dynasty (221-206 BC) heavy charioteer armour unearth from Qin tomb.
img_34061.jpg
9c7aea8b-a056-4140-92d3-ea2a0f465321.jpeg


Fish scale armour layout was also applied to helmets during the Han dynasty as opposed to a single piece during the Warring States (475–221 BC)
Warring States period (475-211BC) bronze helmet.
Bronze_helmet,_Warring_States_period,_Henan_Museum.jpg

10660586.jpg


The bronze helmet appeared earlier during the Zhou and Shang dynasty.
Zhou dynasty Helmet from tomb complex of King Wu of Zhou, circa 1020 BC.
Zhou_Star_Helmet.jpg


During the Han Dynasty, single piece helmets also existed alongside lamellar helmets.
2f738bd4b31c87016c55c220267f9e2f0608ff11.jpg


Single piece helmet with face-plate and and lamellar sides.
8ef651441ff886625db3743a6f8e.jpg
 
Last edited:
.
Wrong.

No chinese envoys ever reached the roman empire.

The furthest a chinese envoy got close was a port city somewhere along the persian gulf. Icant rem which, but thats what my memiry tells me
That's my thoughts too.They probably got the info about the Roman empire through the Parthian empire. Han dynasty envoy reached as far as the Caspian sea and turned back.
 
.
Sorry for off-topic but this adopted troll from Italy keeps insulting different nations, he needs to be taught a lesson.

Latin is dead, Persian is a beautiful language that still lives despite the the invasions and destruction its people has faced.

Wrong. Latin is Italian. Languages evolve. As Italian i can automaticly understand Latin. Over 80% are identical to Italian language. Persian on the other side got arabized. It doesnt even has its own alphabeth
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom