First glimpse into jf-17 block 3?

[Tamiyah]

P

Chinese Dy. President is on official visit here in Pakistan.....rumors are J-10C is again on agenda list....may be on lease or deferred payment terms. lets see.

Please don't start the J10C debate again . It have been discussed a thousand times but results with only one conclusion that is "No response from either side".

 

[Armchair]

P

Please don't start the J10C debate again . It have been discussed a thousand times but results with only one conclusion that is "No response from either side".

So what exact debate would you like to start regarding what to do for Round 2 against Rafales + others?

 

[MastanKhan]

Interesting. My only concern is deferred payment is still payment. At 60+ million dollars per piece, and that AL-31 headache of an engine to deal with, its quite an unattractive option.

A sinofied MiG-35 not only has common engines with the JFT but comes at a fraction of the price (about 35 million). Add to that - its the weight class of Project Azm meaning if you build parts for it like the landing gear, etc, you could use the same in Project Azm and save money and logistics footprint.

Since it is widely assumed that Project Azm will be a twin RD-33 aircraft, why not take a half-step with the MiG-35 and build parts that can be used in Azm, rather than get into the dead end called the J-10C and the AL-31?

Hi,

Sometimes deferred payments are better---. They keep getting deferred & then they slowly disappear---.

 

[Tamiyah]

So what exact debate would you like to start regarding what to do for Round 2 against Rafales + others?

None

 

[Armchair]

None

Then you should keep quiet and let others discuss instead of jumping in with your one liners. What are you 9?

 

[NA71]

Hi,

Sometimes deferred payments are better---. They keep getting deferred & then they slowly disappear---.

Yes Sir, This is it.

The whole scenario is changed...Modi is again in Control ...The Indian is clearly moving towards a different mind set aka "Hindustan for Hindus"....

The Modi Govt will be more brutal for Kashmiries ...more killings...unchallenged. In any retaliatory action from local Kashmiri Group...it will be diverted to Pakistan. This is the point India has managed to create on 26/2...the threat of Strike under nuclear threshold. The cycle does not bothers India as such but its cost for Pakistan is huge.

Next time (within a year or two) their strike package may perform better and with current fleet ...we may not....This should be the pivotal focus of our think tank.

Now coming back to our discussion, this scenario is in consideration, I guess, and the stop gap requirement is being felt strongly.

 

[Tamiyah]

Then you should keep quiet and let others discuss instead of jumping in with your one liners. What are you 9?

Why the f### are you triggered?
I was just telling you to not spoil this thread with your J10 debate

 

[LeGenD]

Theoretically, near to impossible. Rafale is in the lead after F22/F35.

Only near competitor is Typhoon OR SU35...

You missed F-16 Block 70/72 (based on the technologies adopted from F-35 and F-22 including a very powerful 4th generation AESA radar system AN/APG-83).

Slovakia found F-16 Block 70/72 to be vastly superior to the JAS-39 C/D Gripen in the trials even though the latter is very capable aircraft in its own right.

"The aircraft JAS-39 C/D Gripen is compared to the F-16 Block 70/72 load of less equipment, less the capacity of the fuel, less tactical range, a lower endurance in air, lower climbing ability and a significantly lower acceleration. The aircraft is older avionics (radar older generation, early warning and protection elements of the aircraft), which no longer meets the needs of current and future operation of air operations."

OUCH

"Plane F-16 Block 70/72 with elements of integrated avionics, which is used in aircraft 5th generation is one of the most powerful multi-purpose aircraft at present. Extreme load equipment, the possibility of hundreds of variants underslung weapons, fuel capacity, tactical range and endurance in the air, acceleration and gradeability, advanced avionics and advanced targeting, weapons and imaging systems make it ideal for the management of operations to be successful and effective at the same time. The aircraft in addition has the most advanced security features Auto GCAS, which can save the aircraft and crew at indisponovanosti crew.

The possibility that the plane F-16 Block 70/72 provides, it is virtually a new aircraft since the aircraft F-16 Block 70/72 offers high combat value and will still be several decades more than balanced adversary aircraft 5th generation."

Full report: https://www.docdroid.net/45QNtuR/2018-slovakia-f16c-jas39c-eval.pdf

Su-35S does not compare to these birds with its PESA radar system, Russians are much behind the West in the field of avionics.

 

[Liquidmetal]

The Rafale is an impressive plane, and one that should not be discounted, in particular its EW capabilities.

Pakistans deterrence does not rest in having a plane that is "better" than the Rafale, it is in her ability to strike into India and defeat the narrative of India being a super power and the region being its "back yard" etc. It is the ability to hit Indian pride, that is the core of deterrence. What stops and scares India is the counter strike. PAF strikes in Feb 2019 stopped India in her tracks, as it was very difficult for India to explain to her population that a country 1/8th their size managed to come into airspace protected by the IAF and bust up the place, and return with no consequences. It will be a long time, before any Indian PM will be confident enough to risk that. The proliferation of cruise missiles makes it more difficult for India to hold the narrative of her own perception of herself. Imagine, long range cruise missiles hitting New Delhi in a counter strike. India simply didnot expect PAF to strike back in Feb 2019, and expected to hold the narrative, escalation ladder and initiative. They lost that..

No matter how good the Rafale is, going into contested airspace against SAMs, ground based radars and AEWCs is going to be a tall ask. The aircraft is not invulnerable and can be countered. There may even be losses for the PAF in contesting airspace occupied by the Rafale, but it wont be a 1 way street. The PL15 and to some extent the AMRAAMs will see to that. That is the deterrence.

Block III with an AESA radar, and PL15 will pose a serious threat to the IAF. It may not win on the "specifications war" against the Raflae but that is not how combat operates anyway. The Block III will be good enough to take on everything India has in her arsenal as of now, and beat it. Rafale is a challenge, and we may need Block IV as a response.

The Su30MKI is a brilliant plane, and very capable. But, poor deployment and tactics by the IAF caused it to be shot down in Feb 2019.

IAF tactics, and operational deployment skills and abilities will NOT change with the arrival of the Rafale. It is questionable if they will be able to get the best out of the platform they are procuring. They have always struggled in this regard.

Great little essay.

 

[blain2]

The Rafale is an impressive plane, and one that should not be discounted, in particular its EW capabilities.

Pakistans deterrence does not rest in having a plane that is "better" than the Rafale, it is in her ability to strike into India and defeat the narrative of India being a super power and the region being its "back yard" etc. It is the ability to hit Indian pride, that is the core of deterrence. What stops and scares India is the counter strike. PAF strikes in Feb 2019 stopped India in her tracks, as it was very difficult for India to explain to her population that a country 1/8th their size managed to come into airspace protected by the IAF and bust up the place, and return with no consequences. It will be a long time, before any Indian PM will be confident enough to risk that. The proliferation of cruise missiles makes it more difficult for India to hold the narrative of her own perception of herself. Imagine, long range cruise missiles hitting New Delhi in a counter strike. India simply didnot expect PAF to strike back in Feb 2019, and expected to hold the narrative, escalation ladder and initiative. They lost that..

No matter how good the Rafale is, going into contested airspace against SAMs, ground based radars and AEWCs is going to be a tall ask. The aircraft is not invulnerable and can be countered. There may even be losses for the PAF in contesting airspace occupied by the Rafale, but it wont be a 1 way street. The PL15 and to some extent the AMRAAMs will see to that. That is the deterrence.

Block III with an AESA radar, and PL15 will pose a serious threat to the IAF. It may not win on the "specifications war" against the Raflae but that is not how combat operates anyway. The Block III will be good enough to take on everything India has in her arsenal as of now, and beat it. Rafale is a challenge, and we may need Block IV as a response.

The Su30MKI is a brilliant plane, and very capable. But, poor deployment and tactics by the IAF caused it to be shot down in Feb 2019.

IAF tactics, and operational deployment skills and abilities will NOT change with the arrival of the Rafale. It is questionable if they will be able to get the best out of the platform they are procuring. They have always struggled in this regard.

Good post AB! I honestly wrote one very similar to this on another thread only to come back here and read yours. Thoughts are quite similar and I promise, I did not plagiarize. ;-)

I think the Indian inventory poses a serious threat but this threat is also looked at by the PAF in equal seriousness.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Why the f### are you triggered?
I was just telling you to not spoil this thread with your J10 debate

Pakistan interested on J-10C Sheikh rasheed hinted that recently on an interview @Tamiyah

 

[NA71]

You missed F-16 Block 70/72 (based on the technologies adopted from F-35 and F-22 including a very powerful 4th generation AESA radar system AN/APG-83).

Slovakia found F-16 Block 70/72 to be vastly superior to the JAS-39 C/D Gripen in the trials even though the latter is very capable aircraft in its own right.

"The aircraft JAS-39 C/D Gripen is compared to the F-16 Block 70/72 load of less equipment, less the capacity of the fuel, less tactical range, a lower endurance in air, lower climbing ability and a significantly lower acceleration. The aircraft is older avionics (radar older generation, early warning and protection elements of the aircraft), which no longer meets the needs of current and future operation of air operations."

OUCH

"Plane F-16 Block 70/72 with elements of integrated avionics, which is used in aircraft 5th generation is one of the most powerful multi-purpose aircraft at present. Extreme load equipment, the possibility of hundreds of variants underslung weapons, fuel capacity, tactical range and endurance in the air, acceleration and gradeability, advanced avionics and advanced targeting, weapons and imaging systems make it ideal for the management of operations to be successful and effective at the same time. The aircraft in addition has the most advanced security features Auto GCAS, which can save the aircraft and crew at indisponovanosti crew.

The possibility that the plane F-16 Block 70/72 provides, it is virtually a new aircraft since the aircraft F-16 Block 70/72 offers high combat value and will still be several decades more than balanced adversary aircraft 5th generation."

Full report: https://www.docdroid.net/45QNtuR/2018-slovakia-f16c-jas39c-eval.pdf

Su-35S does not compare to these birds with its PESA radar system, Russians are much behind the West in the field of avionics.

Got it... Thanks for the correction... Rafale is now on Fourth Position.

 

[MastanKhan]

The Rafale is an impressive plane, and one that should not be discounted, in particular its EW capabilities.

Pakistans deterrence does not rest in having a plane that is "better" than the Rafale, it is in her ability to strike into India and defeat the narrative of India being a super power and the region being its "back yard" etc. It is the ability to hit Indian pride, that is the core of deterrence. What stops and scares India is the counter strike. PAF strikes in Feb 2019 stopped India in her tracks, as it was very difficult for India to explain to her population that a country 1/8th their size managed to come into airspace protected by the IAF and bust up the place, and return with no consequences. It will be a long time, before any Indian PM will be confident enough to risk that. The proliferation of cruise missiles makes it more difficult for India to hold the narrative of her own perception of herself. Imagine, long range cruise missiles hitting New Delhi in a counter strike. India simply didnot expect PAF to strike back in Feb 2019, and expected to hold the narrative, escalation ladder and initiative. They lost that..

No matter how good the Rafale is, going into contested airspace against SAMs, ground based radars and AEWCs is going to be a tall ask. The aircraft is not invulnerable and can be countered. There may even be losses for the PAF in contesting airspace occupied by the Rafale, but it wont be a 1 way street. The PL15 and to some extent the AMRAAMs will see to that. That is the deterrence.

Block III with an AESA radar, and PL15 will pose a serious threat to the IAF. It may not win on the "specifications war" against the Raflae but that is not how combat operates anyway. The Block III will be good enough to take on everything India has in her arsenal as of now, and beat it. Rafale is a challenge, and we may need Block IV as a response.

The Su30MKI is a brilliant plane, and very capable. But, poor deployment and tactics by the IAF caused it to be shot down in Feb 2019.

IAF tactics, and operational deployment skills and abilities will NOT change with the arrival of the Rafale. It is questionable if they will be able to get the best out of the platform they are procuring. They have always struggled in this regard.

Hi,

WTH did I just read---. Pakistan has nothing to counter strike---. Your post is just like looking at the mirror---loving your reflection and kissing it---.

Just because india did not expect the strike on the 27th was because the american told them that it was not happening because the americans had told the pakistanis not to do it---. Americans told the pakistanis to take one for the gipper---.

There is nothing wrong with the current structure of the Iaf or their aircraft. The SU 30 is the most potent aircraft in the arena---and when the Iaf gets the Rafale---it will just up the ante---.

You are betting the house on one skirmish---? Off course the Iaf tactics will change---. They would not be listening to uncle sam the next time that pak will not strike back---.

I am not only reminded of Nasim Hijazis novel regarding Khwarizm Shah's court but from other european writers as well---where the courtiers were praising the prowess of the shah and putting down the warring capabilities of the mongols---.

 

[PakShaheen79]

17 pages ... and no glimpse still.

 

[Riz]

17 pages ... and no glimpse still.

Believe me there will be no glimpse of an already existing platform... Mehran car ka bumper our lights change hongi.. Mehran wahi rahy gi..