Fighter jet makers eye Indian riches after scaled-back French deal - G Lobby Vs LCA

[Guynextdoor2]

Pretty much decided when Antony wrote that after price negotiations with L1, go back & check whether L1 was really L1. No way anyone could have done anything with the deal after that. Pretty much also decided when IAF decided that they were the USAF where money was not an issue & picked the 2 most expensive platforms. As Parrikar asked, where the heck is the money for this coming from. Same with the proposed mountain division on the Chinese border. Parrikar has had to cut both the outlay & the size by half, Antony/UPA didn't budget the money in.

Lame duck it is.

BULL SHIT man. If it's L1/ L2 or L whatever cost that isn't working out, then why won't you give the entire deal to someone else? This is the most expensive option and doesn't give us anything at all. What justification is there for it?
If every price quoted by every manufacturer is too high for you then that means you are being UNREALLISTIC in your expectations. Blaming everything on the past government is a routine now to cover up your own stupidity. No one asked modi to give a 30 jet deal.

 

[Bang Galore]

BULL SHIT man. If it's L1/ L2 or L whatever cost that isn't working out, then why won't you give the entire deal to someone else? This is the most expensive option and doesn't give us anything at all. What justification is there for it?
If every price quoted by every manufacturer is too high for you then that means you are being UNREALLISTIC in your expectations. Blaming everything on the past government is a routine now to cover up your own stupidity. No one asked modi to give a 30 jet deal.

Err...this is just a discussion. No need to go ballistic. What every manufacturer? There were only two shortlisted - the 2 most expensive ones....Where the heck was the money? Go back to my posts over the last year and a half and you will find that I have been consistently asking the same question....not like I suddenly started on this line.

“The Air Force may want 126 Rafales and I may want to give them 500 but where are the funds? We have to be realistic. So why not go for LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Tejas, Mark II made in India which will save us some money and give a boost to indigenous aerospace industry? At the same time, we understood that the IAF needed the Rafale jets, so I went to the Prime Minister who took a very bold political decision." - Manohar Parrikar

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Err...this is just a discussion. No need to go ballistic. What every manufacturer? There were only two shortlisted - the 2 most expensive ones....Where the heck was the money? Go back to my posts over the last year and a half and you will find that I have been consistently asking the same question....not like I suddenly started on this line.

“The Air Force may want 126 Rafales and I may want to give them 500 but where are the funds? We have to be realistic. So why not go for LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Tejas, Mark II made in India which will save us some money and give a boost to indigenous aerospace industry? At the same time, we understood that the IAF needed the Rafale jets, so I went to the Prime Minister who took a very bold political decision." - Manohar Parrikar

Parikkar's comments are HORSE SHIT. Give LCA instead of Rafale? If it was anyone other than Parikkar I would have had some very harsh things to say. And if you think those are valid comments then you are in some other words.

Plus, if you are not satisfied with the shortlisted candidates, then UNSHORTLIST them and bring Migs/ F 18 back on the table. As if Modi has any qualms about throwing due process into the dustbin. No matter how much you try to whitewash it this the truth - he gave a lameduck deal to please the French. And he has no strategy at all to take decisions around this except try to throw muck on the previous process. What decisions? He didn't even think it necessary to have a proper defence minister for the first 7 months. All the backlogs that created itself will take years to clear.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

Hi
Our own mk1 compares very well with Gripen A/B, and mk2 should take it to NG level. And wait it will cost us around 25 million dollars for mk1 and 40 million dollars for mk2 at the most. And look at NG , it won't cost less than 75 million dollars per plane. If we are spending that high to plugin the numbers then get the damm su 35 which still costs less .
And please don't think about Gripen, it will eat up our LCA orders, if we think mk2 will take more time, then keep producing the mk1 in numbers.
Cheers
Thanks

 

[anant_s]

I'm beginning to see the logic actually. Give some pieces of the IAF to different countries so that allcountries are happy. Saab gets Gripen for light category, 30 Rafale, 30 EFT, 30 Migs etc.

Reminds of when u take ur kid to a candy shop and he picks up a few pieces of all colors and flavors available. except that its the father (government) who is doing the picking job and not sure if it serves IAF right. The numbers and type may vary, what what good would such a motley mix do to force.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Reminds of when u take ur kid to a candy shop and he picks up a few pieces of all colors and flavors available. except that its the father (government) who is doing the picking job and not sure if it serves IAF right. The numbers and type may vary, what what good would such a motley mix do to force.

Maintainence will be more expensive, no TOT. no Make in India. Modi think he's santa claus throwing around Indian public money like gifts to his pals in France and Germany and Sweden and Canada. This is just an unbelievable kind of incompetence.

 

[Bang Galore]

Parikkar's comments are HORSE SHIT. Give LCA instead of Rafale? If it was anyone other than Parikkar I would have had some very harsh things to say. And if you think those are valid comments then you are in some other words.

Plus, if you are not satisfied with the shortlisted candidates, then UNSHORTLIST them and bring Migs/ F 18 back on the table. As if Modi has any qualms about throwing due process into the dustbin. No matter how much you try to whitewash it this the truth - he gave a lameduck deal to please the French. And he has no strategy at all to take decisions around this except try to throw muck on the previous process. What decisions? He didn't even think it necessary to have a proper defence minister for the first 7 months. All the backlogs that created itself will take years to clear.

Which part of "cannot afford" don't you get? You should read Parrikar's detailed interview where he says that he does not buy the argument put forward that falling numbers have to be made up with a large number of Rafales. He said that Mig21's have to be replaced by light fighters since we simply can't afford a large number of Rafales. The fact that there is no money for all these purchases can hardly be put at the feet of this government. The backlog that Antony created by sitting around for 10 years & doing nothing will take quite a lot of undoing.

I would have preferred a total cancellation & looking at other platforms. However if the economics of it is so bad so as to preclude any large buy, then I simply see no other way out of this situation. If the IAF wants fighters now, it simply can't hold till the economy puts on more weight to handle a larger deal. Not an ideal situation but I simply don't consider this a major disaster. As yet.

 

[SpArK]

Which part of "cannot afford" don't you get? You should read Parrikar's detailed interview where he says that he does not buy the argument put forward that falling numbers have to be made up with a large number of Rafales. He said that Mig21's have to be replaced by light fighters since we simply can't afford a large number of Rafales. The fact that there is no money for all these purchases can hardly be put at the feet of this government. The backlog that Antony created by sitting around for 10 years & doing nothing will take quite a lot of undoing.

I would have preferred a total cancellation & looking at other platforms. However if the economics of it is so bad so as to preclude any large buy, then I simply see no other way out of this situation. If the IAF wants fighters now, it simply can't hold till the economy puts on more weight to handle a larger deal. Not an ideal situation but I simply don't consider this a major disaster. As yet.

The needs and the money in the purse aint matching.

We are hence doing the right thing.

 

[anant_s]

Maintainence will be more expensive, no TOT. no Make in India. Modi think he's santa claus throwing around Indian public money like gifts to his pals in France and Germany and Sweden and Canada. This is just an unbelievable kind of incompetence.

Well had it been a case of giving fighter deal to one country, AWACS to another, attack helicopters to third and so on, would be understandable, but the very thought of splitting 12-16 squadrons (max) between HAL and scores of foreign vendors looks kind of goofy.
& i'm not sure if it serves foreign policy in any way.

 

[uparyupari]

People seem to forget that Rafale still has to satisfy the mandatory 30% offset IF we buy the Rafale. EVEN for 36.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I think IAF might going to order all different types of Fighter which they had in competition:
Grippen
Typhoon
Rafael
F-18
MiG-35
Su-35
I am sure about 40-50 each.

sir with all deu respect we are not a rich nation like pakistan nor do we have "brotherli nations" who will financeowr defnce expanditure and we cant dream of getting "soft loans"from some "all weather friend"

as for what both PMO or DM/MOD want right now is to devlop existing MK 1 into MK 1+ platform by giving it abetter engine and better Radar & sensor suite (AESA based) & seting up a couple of more assemblli lines with publick private coopration .... in short "desi jugar"

what my "chirria" has suggested is that DM wants private players to help HAL & IAF if they want bigger share of defnce pie and trust me private players are linning up for that

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm beginning to see the logic actually. Give some pieces of the IAF to different countries so that allcountries are happy. Saab gets Gripen for light category, 30 Rafale, 30 EFT, 30 Migs etc.

@Abingdonboy @Bang Galore increasingly the Rafale deal looks like the lame duck deal.

No I don't think so @Guynextdoor2 that would be a nightmare scenario for the IAF's logistics, an absolute nightmare!

The DM has already stated there are too many different types of fighters in the IAF and they need to simplify the supply chain, no way are those comments about the Gripen or Russian fighters statements of intent- more like posturing for both the domestic audience (ahem HAL) and the foreign audience (Franch Govt/Dassualt).


Let's see what comes out in the next 2-3 months as the govt-govt talks reach their conclusion, nothing I have seen has made me doubt more Rafales (a lot more) are coming to the IAF and will be built in India. Who build them, the industrial benefits they bring, the cost to build in India and ToT are what is unclear as of now.

as for what both PMO or DM/MOD want right now is to devlop existing MK 1 into MK 1+ platform by giving it abetter engine and better Radar & sensor suite (AESA based) & seting up a couple of more assemblli lines with publick private coopration .... in short "desi jugar"

You call this the Mk.1+ but this is effectively the Mk.2 which, In my opinion, is going to be accelerated by HAL now under pressure from the MoD.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You call this the Mk.1+ but this is effectively the Mk.2 which, In my opinion, is going to be accelerated by HAL now under pressure from the MoD.

well the MK2 is in works and it will be a very diffrent beast altogether but we have to deal with current threatscenario as well MK2 will be there but in the mean time the current MK1 will be given a booster shot (GE 414 + AESA)

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Which part of "cannot afford" don't you get? You should read Parrikar's detailed interview where he says that he does not buy the argument put forward that falling numbers have to be made up with a large number of Rafales. He said that Mig21's have to be replaced by light fighters since we simply can't afford a large number of Rafales. The fact that there is no money for all these purchases can hardly be put at the feet of this government. The backlog that Antony created by sitting around for 10 years & doing nothing will take quite a lot of undoing.

I would have preferred a total cancellation & looking at other platforms. However if the economics of it is so bad so as to preclude any large buy, then I simply see no other way out of this situation. If the IAF wants fighters now, it simply can't hold till the economy puts on more weight to handle a larger deal. Not an ideal situation but I simply don't consider this a major disaster. As yet.

And which part of 'is we have no money then why are we splurging USD 6 BILLION on 30 fighters did you not get? You don't have the money today then you know you don't have money tomorrow so why did you buy fighters you know were always going to be most expnsive?

You will have more money if you don't spend half a Billion USD on building statue, dressing up like peacock etc. ANd no, Antony would have never allowed this kind of a lame duck decision to go ahead. He would never have sold India's interests to please trhe French like Modi has done. Total cancellation is not a ;preferance', it is an inevitability if that's how you are looking at thigs. Even the French will have to build fighters no ask tooth fairy to send them down. The same could have been asked from the Russians if price is the only option. UIS would have delivered them even sooner- the F 18 has been in production for decades and even the AUssies have used them stop gaps now as part of regulaer squadrons. Tha fact is MODI GAVE AWAY $ 6 B to French to please them and you're just BSing to defend him His INCOMPETENCE is just unbelievable. For everything make a big song and dance and then f**k things up. Screwed up budget, now this.

 

[black-hawk_101]

sir with all deu respect we are not a rich nation like pakistan nor do we have "brotherli nations" who will financeowr defnce expanditure and we cant dream of getting "soft loans"from some "all weather friend"

as for what both PMO or DM/MOD want right now is to devlop existing MK 1 into MK 1+ platform by giving it abetter engine and better Radar & sensor suite (AESA based) & seting up a couple of more assemblli lines with publick private coopration .... in short "desi jugar"

what my "chirria" has suggested is that DM wants private players to help HAL & IAF if they want bigger share of defnce pie and trust me private players are linning up for that

Pakistan is not being financed by KSA or Gulf. What they pay us is something for the work we deliver them. Or compensate in terms of land lending.