Ex-navy chief:Op Parakram was mistake

[deckingraj]

Bhartis are perfect example of being brainwashed.

If being brainwashed brings me to a state where world is looking at us with respect then i have no regrets...If being brainwashed is pulling us about 8% annual growth and hopefully touching double digit in sometime then i honestly don't mind....

We bharatis are certainly brainwashed people and would love to remain so...

 

[Bhairava]

See my point is very simple...If you have gone for an operation with certain aims in mind and achieve it...it is success...otherwise a failure...Now India mobilized its forces without any particular Aim/Objective...in short this operation was a failure right from the word go....

Wrong.

Any battle is judged by its end-result and not its pre-commencement objectives. If objectives were the sole criteria then Hitler and Napolean both achieved a spectacular victory in Russia.

Now any amount of Lady luck cannot change this basic fact...You are trying to put the success in Kashmir with operation Parakram which is not true...Yes this operation played its part but that's about it...

Here you are contradicting yourself.

You first say Parakram had nothing to do with Kashmir and immediately follow up with "yes that also played a part".

Mobilizing troops isnt all about war...a new term called coercive diplomacy had been coined then.

BTW Lady luck had played a crucial role in many spectacular military victories the immediate one coming to mind being the Second Battle of Panipat.

You know what this kind of arguments don't help....Mush also used the same line to prove that Kargil was a success for Pakistan...because this operation forced India to bring Kashmir back to talking table...Now do you buy that argument??? I centainly don't....Geo-political objectives should be handled in Diplomacy and if Army is being called then it should be used...You should not bring your Army right on the border to deliver your geo-political message...

There is a difference between what I say and what Pakistanis claim about Kargil. Kargil was about a military op gone wrong and status quo again prevailing bu after the loos of so much men,money and credibility. But Op.Parakram was not...the insurgency in Kashmir received a death knwll from which it really never picked up.

And you are simplistic in saying that Army is used to only kill...It doesnt matter how the Army is used as long as your demands are met. Infact the greatest victory is the one coming without war. This may not be the 'greatest victory' but certainly no defeat either.

On the contrary GOI handled it pretty well..In fact much better than 2003...Military option was looked at and then wisely diplomacy was chosen...and boy we did go after Pakistan like a maniac...Don't you think so???

I don't think so. BTW what did you mean by "boy we went after the Pakistan like a maniac"..? By sending them tonnes of waste papers (dossiers) and overwhelming their shredders ? Today Terrorism (our prime concern) is not even on the agenda as talks have been de-linked from terrorism.

BTW do have a look @Mastan Khan's post. That makes some sense.

 

[deckingraj]

Wrong. Any battle is judged by its end-result and not its pre-commencement objectives. If objectives were the sole criteria then Hitler and Napolean both achieved a spectacular victory in Russia.

Any battle is certainly judged by its end-result..But what do you call about getting into a battle without any objective??? A success??? Thats what i mean by saying that we lost the battle the day we enter into it...

Here you are contradicting yourself.

Not really..Let me explain...

You first say Parakram had nothing to do with Kashmir and immediately follow up with "yes that also played a part".

I am still saying the same but my message is a subtly different then what you put above...I am saying that your logic of calling this operation a success is imprived situation in Kashmir....I am saying this operation is not alone responsible for it...It played its part but that's about it...Our improved gadgets coupled with Pakistan occupance in her western border is the main reason...On multiple occasions people in defence ministry/home ministry/armed forces have said that terrorist camps are very much active in P-O-K...infrastructure is still there...So in short lull in Kashmir can very well be temporary...I hope i have made my point clear...

Mobilizing troops isnt all about war...a new term called coercive diplomacy had been coined then.

Sorry but coercive diplomacy is an age-old phenonema...Nothing new out there...Do you have any paraller of this kind of coercive diplomacy??? See you are simply ignoring the epic failures of this operation...

- Loss of 700+ troops
- Further emboldening of Pakistan that they can deter India with their nuke card...

Mumbai is another gloring example that operation Parakram had nothing much to do with terror activities in India which has Pakistan footprints...Again a lull should not be taken as a permanent thing...

BTW Lady luck had played a crucial role in many spectacular military victories the immediate one coming to mind being the Second Battle of Panipat.

Didn't get that...elaborate plz...

There is a difference between what I say and what Pakistanis claim about Kargil. Kargil was about a military op gone wrong and status quo again prevailing.

How do you know??? I can simply say that it was a limited operation done to force India to come on the table viz-a-viz kashmir...Anyways as said i don't buy the argument..just showing how one can convince himself and bring in imaginary victory out of nothing...

But Op.Parakram was not...the insurgency in Kashmir received a death knwll from which it really never picked up.

The catalyst for this is certainly not this operation...There are many other important factors...

And you are simplistic in saying that Army is used to only kill...It doesnt matter how the Army is used as long as your demands are met. Infact the greatest victory is the one coming without war. This may not be the 'greatest victory' but certainly no defeat either.

You are right about the first part...But those victories are achieved with Army still in barracks...not on the border facing the enemy and then being pulled without even firing a single shot and still loosing 700 men...

I don't think so. BTW what did you mean by "boy we went after the Pakistan like a maniac"..? By sending them tonnes of waste papers (dossiers) and overwhelming their shredders ?

The level of isolation Pak has got after Mumbai is unprecedented....They were cornered for a long time...but then there is a limit to our geo-political weight which with economy is also improving...War is certainly not an option at this time and same was the case way back in 2003...That's why to me it was a stupid move which bring in more shame than rewards...

 

[Infinity]

Have you seen Israel releasing 1000 terrorists for 1 citizen? Safety of citizen is first priority of gov. If command op fails and they blow up entire plan? Think of situation, if your loved ones are in the plane.

I think you didn't read my post................Why was no action taken when Plane was at Amristar...........Why did they think of a Commando action once it has left Indian territory........Its You who is Comparing India with Israel...........I won't dare...........

 

[sputnik]

Hi,

No it was not----the operation was a success---there was political reasoning behind it-----which Vajpayee didnot want to bring it out in the open----. America was back with its old love---pakistan---and india was left out of the picture----what parakram did was bring india into the limelight once again-----pakistans attention moved away from its primary target---the escaping al qaeda----.

Pak millitary got bogged down facing its other border----the real enemy escaped and hid in the civilian population---indian publicity brought it back into the limelight one more time.

India got promised a ton of goodies by the american to not get into a war---they agreed---and you can now see the rewards that the indians are getting.

Dear Sir,

thanks for your comments ( Face saving for us).... but wht abt the "CAN" and "Should" Part.

Q-1 "CAN" India attack on Pak.... Now a days Anyone can attack on anyone...(your coment plz)

Q-2 "Should" India attack on Pak...now thts the real question.
Some Indian members on this forum are enjoying current situation in Pak ( count me in fellas)...Acc. to few of us, we are getting our part of Job done ( to some extent) by the US and "Those" who are operating the drone(s).but then can we keep the same mentality in future too?

 

[AUz]

Mind your words. Yes our army is capable to do it. We don't brainwash kids and send across border. Be man to own up.

Awwwwwwwwww bachay ko bura lag gya? Our Army chief panicked on the call of a mad super-power..Your Army chief wanted to blast the rear of your country by fighting a two front war with Pakistani and Chinese military ...very professional...Musharraf probably took the wrong political decision..Your deaf Army chief made fun of Indian Army as an institution by giving such retarded "bayan" You do know how Pakistani General responded to that?,right?

---------- Post added at 01:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 AM ----------

If being brainwashed brings me to a state where world is looking at us with respect then i have no regrets...If being brainwashed is pulling us about 8% annual growth and hopefully touching double digit in sometime then i honestly don't mind....

We bharatis are certainly brainwashed people and would love to remain so...

Ok . . .

 

[Windjammer]

I wants to destroy some ones house. if the owner himself destroys his own house after looking at me. What should i do? I will return.

I would seriously suggest, plastic surgery and a face lift.

 

[fd24]

I would seriously suggest, plastic surgery and a face lift.

No - judging by the posts its beyond that yaar.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I would seriously suggest, plastic surgery and a face lift.

Not worth it... no treatment would work!

And EID MUBARAK TO ALL MY BROTHERS!

 

[MastanKhan]

the question remains could India attack Pakistan without triggering a mutually assured destruction ? and India's getting ton of goodies to contain China ... There isn't any other reason ... Had it been , India would have got all these immediately after 2002 ...

Hi,

Technically we are under attack---as I discussed in what my assessment of 'clod start doctrine' was----I am waiting for ELMO to post it------.

Remember----wars are fought on different fronts---not all wars have clash of the millitaries to get the results you want to achieve without destroying yourself-----.

So---yes india, has achieved is primary goal---. Would it have had as much success if it was through millitary strikes----I would not----. India's millitary is intact---its industry is running at 110% capacity---it is developing at a lightening pace---it still has thousand of its citizens coming on work visa to the united states for IT jobs----. It has crushed pakistani industrial growth---it has created tremendous chaos in the nation----pakistan is the only country with as much technical skill and know how that is going backwar----there has been no nation in the hostory of mankind---where democracy existed----where the scientists were making nuc bombs on one side---cruise missiles on the other side---and the nation was in a moral and economic decline---.

So---yes india has done it without getting involved directly.

 

[Rafi]

Not worth it... no treatment would work!

And EID MUBARAK TO ALL MY BROTHERS!

Eid Mubarak to you too brother.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mind your words. Yes our army is capable to do it. We don't brainwash kids and send across border. Be man to own up.

edited...

Sir,

Please keep entertaining a tone of respect in you posts----let us not talk about the front ends and rear ends----. Thank you.

 

[MastanKhan]

the question remains could India attack Pakistan without triggering a mutually assured destruction ? and India's getting ton of goodies to contain China ... There isn't any other reason ... Had it been , India would have got all these immediately after 2002 ...

Hi,

India has gotten everything----come to SUNNYVALE, CA and San Jose, CA----and Fremont CA and Cuppertino CA and San Francisco and see for yourself-----.

Go to japan---and see how many japanese speaking indians are in japan in the IT---or in germany---in france and so many other places and speaking those languages as well---.

The world has paid back india a million times over for holding back in 2001---2002----but this time they have a much bigger problem as well----.

By castigating pakistan---and supporting india---they have invested heavily in india----now if there is a real between the two----and pak does what it wants to do----the world would be a terrible terrible place----the economies of the world would be shot to pieces on day two of the war---.

Look at this little country GREECE---its econimic wows are holding the whole of the world hostage----just for the bad economic situation---the euro could take a permanent dive----imagine what a major war between two nuc launching foes would do---A TOTAL CHAOS IN THE WHOLE OF THE WORLD'S ECONOMIC MARKETS----they will all collapse----.

 

[Mike2011]

I would seriously suggest, plastic surgery and a face lift.

I will get infraction if I reply... Enjoy the mental masturbation..

 

[Mike2011]

Hi,

India has gotten everything----come to SUNNYVALE, CA and San Jose, CA----and Fremont CA and Cuppertino CA and San Francisco and see for yourself-----.

Go to japan---and see how many japanese speaking indians are in japan in the IT---or in germany---in france and so many other places and speaking those languages as well---.

The world has paid back india a million times over for holding back in 2001---2002----but this time they have a much bigger problem as well----.

By castigating pakistan---and supporting india---they have invested heavily in india----now if there is a real between the two----and pak does what it wants to do----the world would be a terrible terrible place----the economies of the world would be shot to pieces on day two of the war---.

Look at this little country GREECE---its econimic wows are holding the whole of the world hostage----just for the bad economic situation---the euro could take a permanent dive----imagine what a major war between two nuc launching foes would do---A TOTAL CHAOS IN THE WHOLE OF THE WORLD'S ECONOMIC MARKETS----they will all collapse----.

Don't worry. Pakistan will trade nukes for some $$. India needs to kill pak export industry and isolate it from world.