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Euthanasia

Euthansia is morally right


  • Total voters
    11
Not allowing people to die when they are in pain and have no cure in sight shows lack of compassion. As science progresses, it will almost impossible for somebody to die(by keeping the brain alive) in future, if you use all tech available to you.
The bigger dilemma is when society pays for it. Should NHS blow their whole budget on a few terminally ill patients who will technically live forever, thereby starving funds from others, for example care for children.
No you cant do both, NHS is already knee deep in debt, and society does not have enough productivity to afford high cost of care.
 
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Not allowing people to die when they are in pain and have no cure in sight shows lack of compassion. As science progresses, it will almost impossible for somebody to die(by keeping the brain alive) in future, if you use all tech available to you.
The bigger dilemma is when society pays for it. Should NHS blow their whole budget on a few terminally ill patients who will technically live forever, thereby starving funds from others, for example care for children.
No you cant do both, NHS is already knee deep in debt, and society does not have enough productivity to afford high cost of care.
Being in a vegetative state isdifferent from someone who is alive and bearing pain.
 
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okey but even then you wont allow removal of life support right? coz its 'murder'.
Hindu guy there is a procedure for it and nhs removes it. U need to find out more abt it , it happens ,they tell the relatives that its getting too expensive the plug has to be pulled, unless maybe some other arrangement is made. Like maybe private.
Go find out more nhs does that already when there is no hope for patient. Terminally ill patient.

well , for me i cannot kill anyone actively , but sometimes death is better than life and its better to leave that to the patient and their near and dear ones . cancer is such a situation . In patients suffering from cancer that has extensive bone metastasis pain become unbearable even if the opiates are given in maximum dose, think of it it as if you are skinned alive , in that condition who would want to live long . fighting is only glorious sometimes . i for one would love to die a painless death . terminal cancer isn't a fight you can win even if you bear extreme pain.
its better to die once than bear thousands of death every moment .
Oh btw doc i felt so happy that u said the bolded part.
 
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@Shamain @Akheilos @levina @Nihonjin1051 @Peter C @WAJsal @Jungibaaz @Indus Falcon

I want to first keep religion out of this. For those who take the moral high ground and argue that we are intervening or going against nature I would say we do that anyway everyday. I would have been dead three years ago was it not for the wonderful NHS medical procedure carried out in a emergency that saved my life. Everything about the procedure was not natural. My compatriots in Pakistan would most likely have died.

This issue about human intervention also applies to contraception. I have been to NHS SBU ( Special Baby Unit ) and seen the battery of incubators keeping premature babies alive until they reach maturity who would have been dead otherwise. The contrary to the same intervention, that is contraception is shunned by many a Mullah as somehow going against nature. To me the incubator and contraception are the two sides of the same coin. Intervention in one qualifies intervention in the other.

This brings me to Euthanasia. We need to first define it in it's most precise form. Living in UK I will use British House of Lords Select Committee on Medical ethics definition as "a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering".

The problem with this definition is it pivots on the word "intractable". What exactly constitutes "intractable" is open to interpretation. Your "intractable" might not be my "intractable" as the word suggest something beyond control or impossible to deal with. That latter bold word itself is subjective in it's application as what is impossible to me might not be to you.

I think a reasonable person can fairly adduce when the grounds for euthanasia might exist. I think we all would agree stupid things like day gone bad, lost job, husband/wife ran off, failed exam or gone bankrupt are not grounds for even entertaining euthanasia.

So let us move further to the part of human life where euthanasia might creap into the thought process. These are my thoughts :-

(i) In extreme situations where death is inevitable ( I know death is default setting for humans but in this case I mean where we can fairly estimate it's probability in time factor ) and en route to that the person is going through incredible suffering. In addition the pain and or medication used to alleviate the suffering is so potent as to turn the person into a vegatative state. In other words to free then from the pain they are effectively put to sleep by using potent painkillers.

(ii) Where a person already is in vegatative condition as a consequence of trauma/injury/damage or infection and the only reason the person is alive is because essential functions are being serviced by man made external life support systems. That is the person would have died already was it not for the fact that man made life support systems are artificially sustaining life. Furthermore the person has suffered such damage that ( brain, heart , spinal chord ) that their chance of recovery is nominal as expressed by body of medical opinion - please note "body" which excludes one doctor and introduces multiple inputs from outside the immediate medical team )

Provinding (i) and (ii) are applicable I would feel euthanasia or the grounds for application to leave for euthanasia in the courts is qualified where of course all the appropriate evidence and expert opinon could be sought and as adjudged by high court bench taking into account (i) and (ii) followed by a legal ruling detailing reasons and whereins with whereofs.

Do please understand this would entail a long rigorous process and time that would recieve considerable input from many quarters and only be used in extenuating circumtances within the strictest meaning of (i) and (ii) and would not be used every weekend. Exceptional would mean exceptional.

On a side note I would argue that a form of euthanasia even if I take liberties with the definition is already taking place. I give example. In UK NHS by default already is playing "god". Although UK spends about £115 billion a year on NHS which is about £2,000 per man, woman and child. That is about $185 billion compared to Pak defence budget of about $8 billion. That is NHS budget is 23 times more than entire Pak defence budget.

About the National Health Service (NHS) in England - NHS Choices
Key statistics on the NHS - NHS Confederation


However even with this massive budget the NHS could do with more. Some demands have no limit. Medical demand is almost infinite. Thus in the real world despite the massive spend, caps have to be put somewhere even if these are very high. Last year my 83 year old dad was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. My dad has had diabetes for at least 30 years and for the last two decades has needed insulin injection.

As a secondary effect of long term diabetes his kidneys had began to fail about 5 years ago. Each year the function had been dipping and in fact he was being prepared for future dialysis treatment. In this regard he had even visted the local NHS Dialysis unit as a intro for elective day treatment.

When the result for Prostate cancer came positive the GP gave some medication and not much was done after that. As things got worse we insisted to see the consultant at the local Oncoloy Dept of the hospital. When my dad saw the consultant suddenly things speeded up and he was referred to the area specialist oncology centre where he recieved advanced in what was cutting edge of medicine radiation treatment. He went 6 times over six weeks and I know each treatment was extremely costly.

While we would be sitting there I noticed my dad was one of the oldest there. The average age was about 60. The fact was because of the extreme cost the treatment was in effect being rationed and was weighted toward more younger patients. The reason initially they had been slow was some doctor somewhere in the system looked at my dads files, saw diabetes, kidney failure aged over 83 on ton of medication and given the finite resources ( albeit huge ) decided this patient was on his last legs and instead focussed on other younger patients in the que.

The reality was although my dad has all those things his mind is razor sharp ( he was a lawyer ) and cannot stop talking from morning to evening ( on both accounts rather opposite of me ) and is full of life. When that British consultant oncolgist met him my dad started telling him tales from 1940s on, on and on and his legal exploits that guy was surprised ( pleasantly ) and figured this guy had lot of life left in him. Letter arrive for radiation appointment within the week.

The point I am making is doctors everyday make such choices which may not quite fit within the strict definition of euthanasia but they are certainly bordering on that definition since by choosing to prioritize they in fact are playing god.

Trust me if this is what is happening in the mighty NHS with $185 billion budget it must be happening in every health care system in the world. Finally the real litmus test is would I want the option of euthanasia to be extended to me if my accident had gone wrong and I was left in terminal vegetative state? Yes sir, I would beg for one last hug from my loved ones and then be given chance to leave this world after .....





One smoke. I have not smoked now for 10 years but if any of you are smokers it never goes out of your system. So one pull and one puff, smile ......
 
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@Shamain @Akheilos @levina @Nihonjin1051 @Peter C @WAJsal @Jungibaaz @Indus Falcon

I want to first keep religion out of this. For those who take the moral high ground and argue that we are intervening or going against nature I would say we do that anyway everyday. I would have been dead three years ago was it not for the wonderful NHS medical procedure carried out in a emergency that saved my life. Everything about the procedure was not natural. My compatriots in Pakistan would most likely have died.

This issue about human intervention also applies to contraception. I have been to NHS SBU ( Special Baby Unit ) and seen the battery of incubators keeping premature babies alive until they reach maturity who would have been dead otherwise. The contrary to the same intervention, that is contraception is shunned by many a Mullah as somehow going against nature. To me the incubator and contraception are the two sides of the same coin. Intervention in one qualifies intervention in the other.

This brings me to Euthanasia. We need to first define it in it's most precise form. Living in UK I will use British House of Lords Select Committee on Medical ethics definition as "a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering".

The problem with this definition is it pivots on the word "intractable". What exactly constitutes "intractable" is open to interpretation. Your "intractable" might not be my "intractable" as the word suggest something beyond control or impossible to deal with. That latter bold word itself is subjective in it's application as what is impossible to me might not be to you.

I think a reasonable person can fairly adduce when the grounds for euthanasia might exist. I think we all would agree stupid things like day gone bad, lost job, husband/wife ran off, failed exam or gone bankrupt are not grounds for even entertaining euthanasia.

So let us move further to the part of human life where euthanasia might creap into the thought process. These are my thoughts :-

(i) In extreme situations where death is inevitable ( I know death is default setting for humans but in this case I mean where we can fairly estimate it's probability in time factor ) and en route to that the person is going through incredible suffering. In addition the pain and or medication used to alleviate the suffering is so potent as to turn the person into a vegatative state. In other words to free then from the pain they are effectively put to sleep by using potent painkillers.

(ii) Where a person already is in vegatative condition as a consequence of trauma/injury/damage or infection and the only reason the person is alive is because essential functions are being serviced by man made external life support systems. That is the person would have died already was it not for the fact that man made life support systems are artificially sustaining life. Furthermore the person has suffered such damage that ( brain, heart , spinal chord ) that their chance of recovery is nominal as expressed by body of medical opinion - please note "body" which excludes one doctor and introduces multiple inputs from outside the immediate medical team )

Provinding (i) and (ii) are applicable I would feel euthanasia or the grounds for application to leave for euthanasia in the courts is qualified where of course all the appropriate evidence and expert opinon could be sought and as adjudged by high court bench taking into account (i) and (ii) followed by a legal ruling detailing reasons and whereins with whereofs.

Do please understand this would entail a long rigorous process and time that would recieve considerable input from many quarters and only be used in extenuating circumtances within the strictest meaning of (i) and (ii) and would not be used every weekend. Exceptional would mean exceptional.

On a side note I would argue that a form of euthanasia even if I take liberties with the definition is already taking place. I give example. In UK NHS by default already is playing "god". Although UK spends about £115 billion a year on NHS which is about £2,000 per man, woman and child. That is about $185 billion compared to Pak defence budget of about $8 billion. That is NHS budget is 23 times more than entire Pak defence budget.

About the National Health Service (NHS) in England - NHS Choices
Key statistics on the NHS - NHS Confederation


However even with this massive budget the NHS could do with more. Some demands have no limit. Medical demand is almost infinite. Thus in the real world despite the massive spend, caps have to be put somewhere even if these are very high. Last year my 83 year old dad was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. My dad has had diabetes for at least 30 years and for the last two decades has needed insulin injection.

As a secondary effect of long term diabetes his kidneys had began to fail about 5 years ago. Each year the function had been dipping and in fact he was being prepared for future dialysis treatment. In this regard he had even visted the local NHS Dialysis unit as a intro for elective day treatment.

When the result for Prostate cancer came positive the GP gave some medication and not much was done after that. As things got worse we insisted to see the consultant at the local Oncoloy Dept of the hospital. When my dad saw the consultant suddenly things speeded up and he was referred to the area specialist oncology centre where he recieved advanced in what was cutting edge of medicine radiation treatment. He went 6 times over six weeks and I know each treatment was extremely costly.

While we would be sitting there I noticed my dad was one of the oldest there. The average age was about 60. The fact was because of the extreme cost the treatment was in effect being rationed and was weighted toward more younger patients. The reason initially they had been slow was some doctor somewhere in the system looked at my dads files, saw diabetes, kidney failure aged over 83 on ton of medication and given the finite resources ( albeit huge ) decided this patient was on his last legs and instead focussed on other younger patients in the que.

The reality was although my dad has all those things his mind is razor sharp ( he was a lawyer ) and cannot stop talking from morning to evening ( on both accounts rather opposite of me ) and is full of life. When that British consultant oncolgist met him my dad started telling him tales from 1940s on, on and on and his legal exploits that guy was surprised ( pleasantly ) and figured this guy had lot of life left in him. Letter arrive for radiation appointment within the week.

The point I am making is doctors everyday make such choices which may not quite fit within the strict definition of euthanasia but they are certainly bordering on that definition since by choosing to prioritize they in fact are playing god.

Trust me if this is what is happening in the mighty NHS with $185 billion budget it must be happening in every health care system in the world. Finally the real litmus test is would I want the option of euthanasia to be extended to me if my accident had gone wrong and I was left in terminal vegetative state? Yes sir, I would beg for one last hug from my loved ones and then be given chance to leave this world after .....





One smoke. I have not smoked now for 10 years but if any of you are smokers it never goes out of your system. So one pull and one puff, smile ......

Atanz from what i know euthanasia is done when a patient is in extreme pain and his consent is given. And as of vegetative state idont know much abt it.


As of the example of ur dad, then that could be compared with what hinduguy shared on prev page. Only thing is his relatives doc acted total opposite to ur dads doc, one didnt perform further treatments cuz he thought patient wont survive and ur dads doc saw the life and energy inhim and proceeded with the treatment..
Secondly, atanz incubator isnt intervening with nature.

These are all life saving efforts. Cant be compared with life taking one......
I appreciate ur response. And i am too happy that u survived the accident and are doing well.
 
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Secondly, atanz incubator isnt intervening with nature.These are all life saving efforts. Cant be compared with life taking one......

It is Shamein. Nature means a course of events that would follow if no external human effort was not employed. Clearly a incubator is a man made artificial system in absence of which nature would takes it's course. For example most babies born in Pakistan that are premature are victims of nature - they die because there is no incubators to save them. Bottom line incubators are form of human intervention to contradict or subvert the course of nature.

I appreciate ur response. And i am too happy that u survived the accident and are doing well.

Thank you. I hope your not annoyed at me for some reason ...
 
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It is Shamein. Nature means a course of events that would follow if no external human effort was not employed. clearly a incubator is a man made artificial system in absence of which nature woyuld takes it's course. For example most babies norn in Pakistan that are premature are victims of nature - they dies because there is no incubators to save them. Botom line incubators are form of human intervention to contradict or subvert the course of nature.

i actually beg to differ here.
Thank you. I hope your not annoyed at me for some reason ...

Whatt??? Nooo. Over what? I have added u in my fav posters list in my new thread in mem club ,

Guys lets share

Atanz ppl that u had tagged i think u added them later so they didnt see the thread perhaps, iwill tag some

@Nihonjin1051 @Chinese-Dragon @LeveragedBuyout
 
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Misreading on my part. I am enamoured that you included me. "Blowing dushman" ha ha ha .....
Actually when responses are long then i take some time to read , so thats why u sometimes see days long delay in responding.
And the rest we all have views where we will agree and disagree with each other, that doesnt mean we are annoyed or crossed at each other.
And just let you know the feeling is mutuel ....
Lolzzzzz. Thatsss so neattt!! Lolzzzzzz
 
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Suicide in any way or form is haram. In Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith of a man fighting like no other man in way of Allah. Prophet looks at him and says, if you want to see a dweller of hell, that is one. And people were surprised, how can a man fighting so bravely be a hell dweller, as battle went on, that man got wounded and was in a lot of pain, he stabbed his chest with his own sword and committed suicide, thus condemning himself to hell. (this hadith also puts things in perspective for those who favor suicide bombings in "way of Allah")
 
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Suicide in any way or form is haram. In Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith of a man fighting like no other man in way of Allah. Prophet looks at him and says, if you want to see a dweller of hell, that is one. And people were surprised, how can a man fighting so bravely be a hell dweller, as battle went on, that man got wounded and was in a lot of pain, he stabbed his chest with his own sword and committed suicide, thus condemning himself to hell. (this hadith also puts things in perspective for those who favor suicide bombings in "way of Allah")
I have observed that whatever religion one follows ,in time of pain and illness, remembering god and asking him for help helps in dealing with pain. Actually honestly ihad read something ,some article or what abt it, it was abt some non muslim woman, how she used 2 call upon God in her misery and how she used to sense the help being given.
 
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Euthanasia should not only be legal but also needs to be utilized in health service framework. After a certain threshold it should be mandatory for the doctor to relieve the patient of pain permanently. This way the doctor can be held accountable if the patient was in too much pain for too long. This will also build an aversion in the society for long term suffering of any kind.
 
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