Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal

[Papa]

Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal

NEW DELHI: After having lost out to the US in the race to supply "attack" and "heavy-lift" helicopters to India, Russia has now been upstaged in yet another mega defence deal. India has selected the European Airbus-330 MRTT over the Russian Ilyushin-78 mid-air refuelling aircraft in an Rs 8,500-crore contract.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said the European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company (EADS) "is now being called for the final commercial negotiations" for acquisition of six Airbus-330 MRTT tankers.

"The actual contract will be inked in the 2013-14 financial year since commercial negotiations with EADS will take some time. Moreover, there has been a massive cut (Rs 10,000 crore) in the defence capital budget for the ongoing fiscal," said a source.

Both the four-engine IL-78 and the two-engine Airbus-330 had passed the extensive field evaluation trials conducted by IAF but the latter emerged the cheaper option in the subsequent commercial evaluation. "Though the two commercial bids were opened earlier, the final costing last week put the Airbus-330 as the L-1 (lowest bidder) on account of life-cycle costs," said a source.

IAF, which already operates six IL-78s since 2003-04, is looking to induct the six new tankers or "force-multipliers" from 2017 onwards to further enhance its "strategic reach" capabilities. Only a handful of countries operate such tankers, which with their "booms" can refuel fighters and other aircraft in mid-air to virtually double their radius of operations. IAF's Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which have a cruising speed range of 3,200-km, for instance, can strike high-value targets deep inside China with in-flight refuelling.

Despite the recent setbacks with countries like the US, France and Israel muscling into the lucrative Indian market, Russia will remain India's largest arms supplier for the foreseeable future. As first reported by TOI, the imminent inking of the final design contract for the joint development of the fifth-generation stealth fighter will further buttress Russia's position. India will eventually end up spending around $35 billion on the project over the next two decades.

This fresh acquisition of the tankers, however, once again underscores the long-winded Indian defence procurement process that often gets derailed mid-way, leading to huge delays in modernization of the armed forces.

Under an earlier 2006 tender for the tankers, IAF had then also selected the Airbus-330 over the IL-78. But the tender was scrapped in early-2010 after the finance ministry "expressed certain reservations relating to the competitiveness of the bids and the reasonableness of the price".

The current contract is the result of a fresh tender floated in 2010, where "life-cycle costs" were also made part of the selection process unlike the first one. "Four to five years have been lost. IAF could have got the Airbus-330 MRTT much earlier and at a cheaper cost," said the source.

The MRTT (multi-role tanker transport), based on the Airbus-330 wide-bodied commercial airliner, can carry 110 tonnes of fuel to "`top-off" several fighters simultaneously through its "aerial refuelling boom system".

EADS touts its tanker as the fastest one in the business because it can transfer 4,600 litres per minute, greatly reducing the refuelling operation time. The MRTT can also be used as a transport/cargo plane, capable as it is of carrying around 380 passengers or a 45-tonne payload.

Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal - The Times of India

 

[janon]

Excellent news. Expected, but still very welcome.

Is it true that the same airframes can be used either for refueling or for transporting cargo? Also, can it really carry 380 passengers? Even the C-17 can't carry that many. Can they carry paratroopers? Are there follow on options included?

 

[anant_s]

So we get to hear something good in 2013. and EADS finally has a reason to smile about after Eurofighter lost in MMRCA.
Good choice by IAF though and now we can hope the deal gets signed at the earliest.

 

[for truth]

now i have a question, this tender is not new, this was floated long back, and in the first, Russians had won this tender.
now the question is, the rupee to dollar ratio or to the euro was considerably favorable during the time this was first floated, and the rupee has slipped to a new low now, how the hell did this aircraft turn out to be cheaper than it was earlier when our rupee has hit the rock bottom.

and these fools have a new tool "life cycle costs", this was first invented by Americans to favor a particular contractor over the other in defense deals, basically what you do is, add the term "life cycle cost" cook up all the data in favoring one particular, and declare the favored as the winner. the very term " life cycle cost" indicates lots of uncertainty in it, even if they are including life cycle cost in it, the supply of spares will be more costlier than it will be with Russians, not to mention the primary cost of buying this aircraft, and the lifetime of the aircraft depends on hell lot of factors, like maintenance for example, cost of maintenance would have been much cheaper with the Russian one as the spares would have been a lot cheaper and any consultation there after, and if the rupee falls again compared to euro, than the life cycle cost will increase considerably, our rupee has fallen by more than 20% in past few years!!!!!. Any way, our fools started using the American technique of fooling the public and favoring one over the other.And, no one can question these "life cycle costs" as they are based on many calculations and interpretations, on the other hand, everyone can question them, because they are based hell lot of assumptions.

the air force had all along favored the European one over the Russian one, that's why the last tender was canceled,they could have gone to the European one long time back, but due to the corruption cases and scams being reported in the media, the govt choose not to, and re floated the tender, only this time- they included life time cost, and declared Europeans as the winner, there by leaving no doubts and no room for suspicion.

 

[arp2041]

 

[arp2041]

now i have a question, this tender is not new, this was floated long back, and in the first, Russians had won this tender.
now the question is, the rupee to dollar ratio or to the euro was considerably favorable during the time this was first floated, and the rupee has slipped to a new low now, how the hell did this aircraft turn out to be cheaper than it was earlier when our rupee has hit the rock bottom.

and these fools have a new tool "life cycle costs", this was first invented by Americans to favor a particular contractor over the other in defense deals, basically what you do is, add the term "life cycle cost" cook up all the data in favoring one particular, and declare the favored as the winner. the very term " life cycle cost" indicates lots of uncertainty in it, even if they are including life cycle cost in it, the supply of spares will be more costlier than it will be with Russians, not to mention the primary cost of buying this aircraft, and the lifetime of the aircraft depends on hell lot of factors, like maintenance for example, cost of maintenance would have been much cheaper with the Russian one as the spares would have been a lot cheaper and any consultation there after, and if the rupee falls again compared to euro, than the life cycle cost will increase considerably, our rupee has fallen by more than 20% in past few years!!!!!. Any way, our fools started using the American technique of fooling the public and favoring one over the other.And, no one can question these "life cycle costs" as they are based on many calculations and interpretations, on the other hand, everyone can question them, because they are based hell lot of assumptions.

the air force had all along favored the European one over the Russian one, that's why the last tender was canceled,they could have gone to the European one long time back, but due to the corruption cases and scams being reported in the media, the govt choose not to, and re floated the tender, only this time- they included life time cost, and declared Europeans as the winner, there by leaving no doubts and no room for suspicion.

Yes, this tender was floated before b'coz just 6 refuellers were less for a force with 700+ fighters. Russians NEVER won this tender, in the earlier bid IAF selected A-330 on better technical performance but the finance ministry cancelled the bid since the cost of each A-330 was considerably more than IL-78.

Life Cycle Cost is very much an Important consideration while operating an aircraft & IAF has 80 years of experience in it so they are anything but FOOLS, it's like choosing b/w a scooter (costing 30k & average of 35km) & a bike (costing 45k & average 50-60km).

 

[anant_s]

now i have a question, this tender is not new, this was floated long back, and in the first, Russians had won this tender.
now the question is, the rupee to dollar ratio or to the euro was considerably favorable during the time this was first floated, and the rupee has slipped to a new low now, how the hell did this aircraft turn out to be cheaper than it was earlier when our rupee has hit the rock bottom.

and these fools have a new tool "life cycle costs", this was first invented by Americans to favor a particular contractor over the other in defense deals, basically what you do is, add the term "life cycle cost" cook up all the data in favoring one particular, and declare the favored as the winner. the very term " life cycle cost" indicates lots of uncertainty in it, even if they are including life cycle cost in it, the supply of spares will be more costlier than it will be with Russians, not to mention the primary cost of buying this aircraft, and the lifetime of the aircraft depends on hell lot of factors, like maintenance for example, cost of maintenance would have been much cheaper with the Russian one as the spares would have been a lot cheaper and any consultation there after, and if the rupee falls again compared to euro, than the life cycle cost will increase considerably, our rupee has fallen by more than 20% in past few years!!!!!. Any way, our fools started using the American technique of fooling the public and favoring one over the other.And, no one can question these "life cycle costs" as they are based on many calculations and interpretations, on the other hand, everyone can question them, because they are based hell lot of assumptions.

the air force had all along favored the European one over the Russian one, that's why the last tender was canceled,they could have gone to the European one long time back, but due to the corruption cases and scams being reported in the media, the govt choose not to, and re floated the tender, only this time- they included life time cost, and declared Europeans as the winner, there by leaving no doubts and no room for suspicion.

There seems to be something fishy with the way IAF is viewing IL 78 these days. First we had news that newer AWACS platform may not be on IL 78 and now loss in tanker contest. So one thing is for sure that either IL 78 doesnot fit the role as seen by planners or may be Russia isn't supporting customers properly and which is where Life time cycle costs come into play. My assessment is that IL 78 couldnot beat a commercial airline derivative which owing to its larger customer base would be get support from manufacturer and perhaps lesser and cheaper maintenance.

 

[Koovie]

Congrats to the IAF, when will the contract be signed?

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

A330 is the way to go.. the reason why we didn't go for IL-76MKI was he same why we didn't go for F-16s in MMRCA. Those models simply doesn't have any more future.

 

[arp2041]

Excellent news. Expected, but still very welcome.

Is it true that the same airframes can be used either for refueling or for transporting cargo? Also, can it really carry 380 passengers? Even the C-17 can't carry that many. Can they carry paratroopers? Are there follow on options included?

The contract to be awarded is estimated to be worth around $1-1.3 billion USD. Reports suggest IAF will eventually buy 12 new tankers, though it is not yet clear whether the 6 more tankers would, in fact be a replacement for the existing Il-78. As of now, however, there is confirmed news of plans to buy 6 tankers, most likely from Airbus.

IAF Mirage 2000 Fighters Hooking-Up With An Il-78 Tanker To Perform Mid-Air Refuelling - AA Me, IN

So Plans are to field a total of 18 AARs since IL-78MKIs are inducted just years back, they are here to stay for long + 12 A330s maybe.

 

[Iggy]

I think those British guys can now sleep peacefully.. Their aid money is coming back to their country

 

[sancho]

Excellent news. Expected, but still very welcome.

Is it true that the same airframes can be used either for refueling or for transporting cargo? Also, can it really carry 380 passengers? Even the C-17 can't carry that many. Can they carry paratroopers? Are there follow on options included?

The A330 MRTT can be used for refuelling, transport of cargo / troops and in MEDIVAC roles. The tanker role can be done at the same time, when it does one of the other roles, since the fuel will be carried in it's internal fuel tanks only, not in the cargohold. That's why the cargohold can be configured to carry up to 380 passengers / 300 fully equipped troops, or up to 45t of cargo (same payload as our current IL 76).
The C17 can only carry way less passengers/troops, because of it has only 4 rows placed vertically in the cargo hold, while the seats in the A330 will be placed like in all civil aircrafts as well.

 

[Rocky25]

The A330 MRTT can be used for refuelling, transport of cargo / troops and in MEDIVAC roles. The tanker role can be done at the same time, when it does one of the other roles, since the fuel will be carried in it's internal fuel tanks only, not in the cargohold. That's why the cargohold can be configured to carry up to 380 passengers / 300 fully equipped troops, or up to 45t of cargo (same payload as our current IL 76).
The C17 can only carry way less passengers/troops, because of it has only 4 rows placed vertically in the cargo hold, while the seats in the A330 will be placed like in all civil aircrafts as well.

It would be better if the Europeans allow the the Israeli's to integrate their AWACS Radar in it. Truly multi-Role!

 

[Abingdonboy]

There seems to be something fishy with the way IAF is viewing IL 78 these days. First we had news that newer AWACS platform may not be on IL 78 and now loss in tanker contest. So one thing is for sure that either IL 78 doesnot fit the role as seen by planners or may be Russia isn't supporting customers properly and which is where Life time cycle costs come into play. My assessment is that IL 78 couldnot beat a commercial airline derivative which owing to its larger customer base would be get support from manufacturer and perhaps lesser and cheaper maintenance.

There's nothing "fishy" about how the IAF view the Il-76 and its variants. The IAF is simply seeing them for what they are- cheap and cheerful solutions that are unreliable, incredibly hard to maintain on account of poor supply of spares and parts from Russia and the airfram has been built with little thought to those who have to maintain such craft. The curse of the Il-76 series is the curse of almost every Russian airplane up and till relatively recently ie realtocaly cheap unit costs but a horror to maintain and keep flying throughout its entire working life leading to significantly higher life cycle costs.


It is not hard to see why the IAF preffers the A-330 MRTT- half the engines mean half the maintenance required on them, half the aircrew (this is a significant cost when tallied throughout the life of the airframe, training skilled aircrew is an incredibly expensive business), superior self diagnostic suite, an airframe that is easier to maintain, big commanility with Airbus's civilian fleet- with 100s of such birds operating in India there are plenty of facilities in india that can ready be used to maintain the A-330 MRTT. And then there is the A-330's multi role capability- the MRTT does what it says on the tin in this regard, Multi Role Tanker Transport. When the IAF gets the A-330 it will be getting not just a tanker but a passenger and cargo a/c so by adding the A-330 the IAF is also adding to its already expanding airlift capacity.

The IL-78 brings none of these advantages.


There is nothing "fishy" about this at all. In fact, if the Il-78 had won then you could say somthing "fishy" was going on, instead a sensible decision has been made.

 

[jha]

It would be better if the Europeans allow the the Israeli's to integrate their AWACS Radar in it. Truly multi-Role!

Yes... and we should also install some pylons on wings to fire AAM and AGM from it...