Establishment of Pakistan that hides behind the Tombs of Martyred

[Maea]

Since you brought up the payment it seems like you are on the ISPR payroll. Only if they taught you to have a decent conversation or even read before replying. Alas, it is too much of an ask.

Since most ISPR trolls are unicellular organisms, so let me put it clearly for you

Your argument: "our judiciary doesnt discriminate when it comes to injustices, ruthlessly corrupt, thats what it is. No need for Army to manipolate them."

My answer: Army does manipulate judicary, and judiciary does discriminate and does injustices especially for the corrupt.

I also provided a fact: Kamran kiayani brother of Ashfaq pervaiz kayani despite being involved in multiple scams of multi billion rupees with 1000s of affected people still roam free, none of his properties are confiscated, despite repeated requests Red-warrants are also not being issued.


Now come with a valid statement logical argument or as I said earlier post in the "army fan boy" thread.

Uhm the pay mustnt be good if they are hiring poeple like you with zero comprehention skills.

Anyway, you just proved my point. The judiciary is corrupt and thats it. They deal with everyone be it Army or politicians.

Since your using the PTI media cell script method of randomly throwing facts without any context, check this:

The commission – headed by FIA Director-General Wajid Zia – was formed by the PTI government to probe into the causes of sudden spike in sugar prices in January this year.

Tareen was among those accused of benefiting the most from the crisis.

The report said six major groups controlled 51% of the total sugar production and Tareen’s JDW Mill had the biggest share – 20% of the total production. His mills made Rs200 billion in three years.

Now where is Tareen? Is he behind bars? No, the officer investigating this crime went on leave, effectively the case is over.

PTI media cell should hire some pros.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Uhm the pay mustnt be good if they are hiring poeple like you with zero comprehention skills.

Anyway, you just proved my point. The judiciary is corrupt and thats it. They deal with everyone be it Army or politicians.

Since your using the PTI media cell script method of randomly throwing facts without any context, check this:

The commission – headed by FIA Director-General Wajid Zia – was formed by the PTI government to probe into the causes of sudden spike in sugar prices in January this year.

Tareen was among those accused of benefiting the most from the crisis.

The report said six major groups controlled 51% of the total sugar production and Tareen’s JDW Mill had the biggest share – 20% of the total production. His mills made Rs200 billion in three years.

Now where is Tareen? Is he behind bars? No, the officer investigating this crime went on leave, effectively the case is over.

PTI media cell should hire some pros.

Keep on changing the goal post; Batman

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

 

[Maea]

Keep on changing the goal post Batman

Nothing to more say? As i sayed PTI should hire pros.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Similarly, DHA CITY Lahore was introduced in 2010 to accommodate shauda families, on the pretext of funding the project 13000 plots were sold to bloody civilians and billions were collected. It is almost 2023 and that project is nowhere to be seen. Justice Saqib Nisar took a stance for the affectes, DHA was bound to complete the project in 3 years and those 3 years have also passed with zero progress, and court is just giving the next date after every 6 months (success of our judicial system as per one learned member from Australia)

Lastly, this project despite being DHA was owned by Kamran Kayani who later fled the country with Billions, now let's guess who Kamran Kayani might be, and who could have possibly influenced DHA to provide a multi-billion contract to a nobody? Kamran Kayani despite being nominated in different multi-billion scams is enjoying a luxury life in London, despite numerous orders by the court to issue Red-Warrant, none are being issued.

I wonder who might be supporting him since he and his brother has nothing to do with the mighty, the most patriotic, honest, and loyal high command.

London is nothing. The Kayani family holdings in Australia are through the roof. Zero accountability.

 

[Thinker3]

Uhm the pay mustnt be good if they are hiring poeple like you with zero comprehention skills.

Anyway, you just proved my point. The judiciary is corrupt and thats it. They deal with everyone be it Army or politicians.

Since your using the PTI media cell script method of randomly throwing facts without any context, check this:

The commission – headed by FIA Director-General Wajid Zia – was formed by the PTI government to probe into the causes of sudden spike in sugar prices in January this year.

Tareen was among those accused of benefiting the most from the crisis.

The report said six major groups controlled 51% of the total sugar production and Tareen’s JDW Mill had the biggest share – 20% of the total production. His mills made Rs200 billion in three years.

Now where is Tareen? Is he behind bars? No, the officer investigating this crime went on leave, effectively the case is over.

PTI media cell should hire some pros.

Tareen was sidelined from PTI due to that and put under investigation, this was the reason he was angry with IK and joined hands with PDM, same with Aleem Khan, even though he was PTI PMA and quite influential he was investigated, this has never been seen in Pakistan before as the no one dared to touch any member of ruling party, MPA is a very big thing no one could touch a common worker of the ruling party before PTI.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Nothing to more say? As i sayed PTI should hire pros.

Don't assume if I'm quiet I have nothing more to say. I just know better than to argue with a fool.

 

[Signalian]

Couldnt agree more.

Sadly our poeple get very emotional most of the time and loose the ability to rationalize and think properly. Couple that with 5th gen warfare and you have a society which is so divided that our enemies, who regularly used to bark, have stopped realizing they dont even need to fight us anymore, we will kill each other ourselves.

Every incident that occurred in Pakistan's history can be looked at and analysed from every point of view. That will take time and dedication to reach a conclusion if and how democracy or dictatorship helped or destroyed Pakistan and in what ways. Who benefited whom. Approaching USA by Jinnah after 1947. The growth of military power in Pakistan and why public accepted that growth of power till now. The threats that Pakistan faced from 47 till now, how they were manged and how they were curbed. The important part is public perception regarding Government, Army and their own life. Pakistani public is corrupt to the core, there is no denying this. That's why a corrupt system has survived and will survive in Pakistan. Then the party-worshiping because there are jiyalas and what not of PPP, and then the youthias of PTI and the tigers of PMLN. There have been leaders in past which had a personal impact on Pakistan, like Z A Bhutto, and maybe Ayub before that. One has to see how and when Pakistan flourished economically, under which Governments. Industrial setups and other progressions.

To see the replies, in this thread and even before also, these PDF members don't even know what they want. They are speaking what media is speaking. Tell me how many PDF members are directly affected by floods right now ? The daily attendance shows that same faces post everyday. They are sitting in their bedrooms, couches in lounges, working stations etc and posting curses like bots on endless loop. They are here to comment and commenting they are, but if you ask about knowledge, all the information is from media. No analysis from any book. No sound argument, just blind following of certain agendas and the oath to protect that agenda till death. That is the average Pakistani member sitting on PDF right now. If somebody is in Pakistan, its due to Military that they are sitting freely and posting online on PDF, thats enough for me to credit to Military. As for conspiracy theories, these members forget that there were many before them in the 60's, 70's, 80, 90's, 2000's who talked of conspiracy theories against Military - the Military survives and stands and there is no force that can ever undo Military. Its such a strong functioning paradigm that it has absorbed, survives, progressed, lost, won - under numerous COASs.

The video I posted about no help arriving from Australian Govt or Australian Army was to show that even in developed countries, a lot of politics, mismanagement etc happens. I was here, I saw it. Pick up any country in the world - the public dislikes its Government, many loved Trump, many hated him. Some think Republicans are saints, others worship democrats. Sooner or later, other factors start popping up, which differentiate a country from another. These can be circumstances, enemies, public, economy, geography, weather, GDP, and many other factors. Public of other countries cannot have the leaders they want too. Some can get back in power, there are chances that Trump may return as POTUS, who knows.

Coming back to cursing military - will that effect Military? No.
Military is a system that has been here before these PDF members were born and it will stay here after they die. Generals are corrupt, well so is the Pakistani public. Take out statistics, you will be surprised. Police is corrupt, so is public. Judges are corrupt, so is public. Government is corrupt, so is public. After all, aren't Pakistanis serving in these departments or were martians called upon to serve Pakistan ? DHA is a thorn in the neck for many, Army doesn;t care. DHA is not for these PDF members, its for members of the military who served the nation. DHA itself gives tax back to Pakistan. The public can judge every officer and say the worst about those officers, but military holds their career records and OEI. Accusations will get these PDF members nowhere, but it will build a negative environment on PDF. Some senior members, including me had to wake up mods to throw these members out of military discussion threads and allow them to thrive in the political cesspool, where they can throw dirt and eat dirt as much as they want.

As for slavery of USA, the dependency of a country on other countries is a reality. China cannot trade with in itself and become powerful globally. Tough decisions are taken as compromises due to own lack of resources and technology and other circumstances. That is a reality. Pakistan became nuclear power so India doesn't capture large parts of it and keeps them after war. However, being nuclear isn't a guarantee in other aspects. Most members are unaware or dont want to know but IAF doesn't give two hoots about JFT and J-10. The only pain for IAF is F-16 and PAF knows it.

Then another important point is "extremism". You will see extremism in PDF members. Stop everything with USA, cut off from USA, don't send officers to USA, USA is a devil, USA is evil etc. An ordinary lives with his devil everyday, doesn't he ? Can you cut off from your own devil ? NO. This is extremist thinking which is a part and parcel pf Pakistani public. Yes, USA has an attached-strings policy, but then there are ways around it. Military is handling USA quite well. Civil Government also handles USA in some way or another.We do not know what happens behind doors. We will never be told. But then things won't happen 100% as PDF members here want. So thats when the cursing and swearing starts. Is that how these members solve things in their lives ? is this what has been taught to them by their parents ? I mean they are showing their family values.

There are operational procedures, procurement procedures, course/officer transfer procedures etc that these members will never understand. Either their IQ level wouldn't allow them or their biased povs. Like I said, military functions in a certain way and its functioning successfully. If it needs a change, it brings that change through a certain procedure. Not through public pressure. This cannot be digested by members here. Who cares.

One thing that I have seen is that personality worshiping can end up as iconoclasm. They may worship IK but he is constantly making mistakes in his political career. These mistakes are allowed to IK, but as hell they can't be allowed to a General or any other political entity or party. A human makes mistakes, only God is perfect. IK may have given everybody a chance to throw mud at Military, but how is it useful ? Its not. He is creating a divide which is actually disastrous for Pakistan in general. In my books, IK is proved wrong, time and again. Its the Military that is on the forefront helping the public. The divide that IK tried to create gets narrower through a disaster. It may be Army's responsibility but Army can shrug it off too, just like Australian Military did a times. Now Australia is just one example. Pakistan Army didnt shrug it off. Army is handling it using its military resources. Give credit where due. IK failed at his attempts. Blind worshiping of IK is not healthy, no matter how you put it. Some say he opened eyes of public about Military, well if your eyes are open then look at sacrifices of Military for the floods too. High ranking officers have been lost, but close your eyes instantly. That didnt happen, IK says turn a blind eye, lol just like Simon says.

The Civil sector has to be made strong, in fact stronger, than the Military. Civil defense, police, judiciary, civil Government departments like irrigation, transport, commerce etc, they all have to be top notch. Only then the long lost dream of a prosperous Pakistan can be achieved. Military is a system, it has strengthened itself to such a degree that Civil system fails in front of it. Military is about COAS, but they change. PTI is just about IK, who will take over after IK. This is why I called military a system. PTI isn't a system, nor is PMLN. well PMLN or PPP are systems of "Gaddi nasheen". They will have a new heir ready just like Military has a COAS. The difference between political heir and military COAS is massive. For one, military COAS's are not heirs of COAS's, not even same blood line. and there are many more.

I can go on and on and on, but for me PDF is a learning portal. There is no learning when I repeat the same things as I already know them. How can somebody learn from extremism and cursing as well as tunnel vision. At least if I talk about military, I have been very close to them system, much closer than 95% of PDF. I can open a topic on every point I made, but I find that there is no learning for me then. I stopped replying to many also as one cant learn from them. I can engage thoroughly but as soon as I see they know nothing in reality but just garbling from hear say and from news/analysis of media, I lose interest as their foundations are weak.

 

[ziaulislam]

I wonder which world you live in; Selectively delusional or institutionally blind? I understand your bias towards your old organization but this is now a little too much

So according to you,

1. There is no Judicial failure in Pakistan? Kindly back up your claim with a world ranking of our judiciary
2. Police is not a failure? What makes you say so? Logon kay Jan aur maal ki full tahafauz hou raha hai - next time when you visit Pakistan go and visit any police station or go out on a street and carry out a random survey.
3. Government is not a failure? yeah right, begging for a mere 1.5 billion$ is an achievement for any government.
4. The military is not a failure? Well keeping their political meddling and extra circular activities aside, how many wars this successful military has won?

As for your "Pakistan still stands" well in case you miss the memo more than half of the Pakistan landmass is lost already in the shape of the Bangladesh, and Balochistan situation we all know, the way things are going KPK will be lost too but yeah Pakistan will still stand what if it is only reduced to Punjab at least it will still be called Pakistan

He is right
There is no judicial failure because there is no Judiciary to begin with

So called Judiciary (which it isn't) is just an extension of army sentencing people to death legalizing martial law or doing weird stuff

 

[Conqueror]

So, are you implying that Gen. Bajwa and a few other generals never faced enemy eye to eye. They never faced bullets and bombs passing and falling their left and right through out their career in the military? Please share some evidence when these generals refused to fight a war against our enemies.

I am sure you might be brainless PTI zombie. Shame on you for belittling our protectors. Allah SwT has written a specific time for everyone to die. If Gen Bajwa and his colleagues are alive today does not really mean that they never fought a war. Every member of our military works hard to prepare himself and desire shahadat while fighting against the enemies of Islam and Pakistan. Bloody bast**** low souls like you accuse those warriors while sitting at the keyboard in the comfort of home.

Shame on you once again.

I think you've missed reading my post altogether. I invite you to read it another time. You are angry about things which are not even there. I think it's just fair that you read the message before you go angry about it.

 

[airmarshal]

This is just like PPP. They too are hiding behind their tombs for last 4 decades with nothing else to show.

Establishment too capitalizes army's sacrifices to blackmail the nation and use it to impose themselves upon us.

 

[Jango]

they know how corruption is instilled in the genome of the people.

Shehbaz Sharif today, in the press conference with the UNSG, had to say that I guarantee that the funds given to us will be utilized in a transparent manner bla bla bla

Yeh auqat hai ab keh doosron ko guarantee deni par rahi hai that ham chori nhn karain gay.

Ab jo banda guarantee day raha hai, on his 'honest word', wohi shakhs hai jis nay apnay bhai kay wapis anay ki guarantee di thi.

 

[fitpOsitive]

As per PDF members -Judiciary failure, police failure, government failure, military failure - but Pakistan still stands

Crawls.
Infact we are on ventilator. Aid aata hai tu mulk chalta hai. Or aid aata hai or mulk "chalta" hai.

 

[Mentee]

So, are you implying that Gen. Bajwa and a few other generals never faced enemy eye to eye. They never faced bullets and bombs passing and falling their left and right through out their career in the military? Please share some evidence when these generals refused to fight a war against our enemies.

I am sure you might be brainless PTI zombie. Shame on you for belittling our protectors. Allah SwT has written a specific time for everyone to die. If Gen Bajwa and his colleagues are alive today does not really mean that they never fought a war. Every member of our military works hard to prepare himself and desire shahadat while fighting against the enemies of Islam and Pakistan. Bloody bast**** low souls like you accuse those warriors while sitting at the keyboard in the comfort of home.

Shame on you once again.

Used to be bloody civilian- ------.

Anyhow where does this audacity of calling a tax payer bloody bastard comes from? screw you and your sarkari justice league fantasies.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Every incident that occurred in Pakistan's history can be looked at and analysed from every point of view. That will take time and dedication to reach a conclusion if and how democracy or dictatorship helped or destroyed Pakistan and in what ways. Who benefited whom. Approaching USA by Jinnah after 1947. The growth of military power in Pakistan and why public accepted that growth of power till now. The threats that Pakistan faced from 47 till now, how they were manged and how they were curbed. The important part is public perception regarding Government, Army and their own life. Pakistani public is corrupt to the core, there is no denying this. That's why a corrupt system has survived and will survive in Pakistan. Then the party-worshiping because there are jiyalas and what not of PPP, and then the youthias of PTI and the tigers of PMLN. There have been leaders in past which had a personal impact on Pakistan, like Z A Bhutto, and maybe Ayub before that. One has to see how and when Pakistan flourished economically, under which Governments. Industrial setups and other progressions.

To see the replies, in this thread and even before also, these PDF members don't even know what they want. They are speaking what media is speaking. Tell me how many PDF members are directly affected by floods right now ? The daily attendance shows that same faces post everyday. They are sitting in their bedrooms, couches in lounges, working stations etc and posting curses like bots on endless loop. They are here to comment and commenting they are, but if you ask about knowledge, all the information is from media. No analysis from any book. No sound argument, just blind following of certain agendas and the oath to protect that agenda till death. That is the average Pakistani member sitting on PDF right now. If somebody is in Pakistan, its due to Military that they are sitting freely and posting online on PDF, thats enough for me to credit to Military. As for conspiracy theories, these members forget that there were many before them in the 60's, 70's, 80, 90's, 2000's who talked of conspiracy theories against Military - the Military survives and stands and there is no force that can ever undo Military. Its such a strong functioning paradigm that it has absorbed, survives, progressed, lost, won - under numerous COASs.

The video I posted about no help arriving from Australian Govt or Australian Army was to show that even in developed countries, a lot of politics, mismanagement etc happens. I was here, I saw it. Pick up any country in the world - the public dislikes its Government, many loved Trump, many hated him. Some think Republicans are saints, others worship democrats. Sooner or later, other factors start popping up, which differentiate a country from another. These can be circumstances, enemies, public, economy, geography, weather, GDP, and many other factors. Public of other countries cannot have the leaders they want too. Some can get back in power, there are chances that Trump may return as POTUS, who knows.

Coming back to cursing military - will that effect Military? No.
Military is a system that has been here before these PDF members were born and it will stay here after they die. Generals are corrupt, well so is the Pakistani public. Take out statistics, you will be surprised. Police is corrupt, so is public. Judges are corrupt, so is public. Government is corrupt, so is public. After all, aren't Pakistanis serving in these departments or were martians called upon to serve Pakistan ? DHA is a thorn in the neck for many, Army doesn;t care. DHA is not for these PDF members, its for members of the military who served the nation. DHA itself gives tax back to Pakistan. The public can judge every officer and say the worst about those officers, but military holds their career records and OEI. Accusations will get these PDF members nowhere, but it will build a negative environment on PDF. Some senior members, including me had to wake up mods to throw these members out of military discussion threads and allow them to thrive in the political cesspool, where they can throw dirt and eat dirt as much as they want.

As for slavery of USA, the dependency of a country on other countries is a reality. China cannot trade with in itself and become powerful globally. Tough decisions are taken as compromises due to own lack of resources and technology and other circumstances. That is a reality. Pakistan became nuclear power so India doesn't capture large parts of it and keeps them after war. However, being nuclear isn't a guarantee in other aspects. Most members are unaware or dont want to know but IAF doesn't give two hoots about JFT and J-10. The only pain for IAF is F-16 and PAF knows it.

Then another important point is "extremism". You will see extremism in PDF members. Stop everything with USA, cut off from USA, don't send officers to USA, USA is a devil, USA is evil etc. An ordinary lives with his devil everyday, doesn't he ? Can you cut off from your own devil ? NO. This is extremist thinking which is a part and parcel pf Pakistani public. Yes, USA has an attached-strings policy, but then there are ways around it. Military is handling USA quite well. Civil Government also handles USA in some way or another.We do not know what happens behind doors. We will never be told. But then things won't happen 100% as PDF members here want. So thats when the cursing and swearing starts. Is that how these members solve things in their lives ? is this what has been taught to them by their parents ? I mean they are showing their family values.

There are operational procedures, procurement procedures, course/officer transfer procedures etc that these members will never understand. Either their IQ level wouldn't allow them or their biased povs. Like I said, military functions in a certain way and its functioning successfully. If it needs a change, it brings that change through a certain procedure. Not through public pressure. This cannot be digested by members here. Who cares.

One thing that I have seen is that personality worshiping can end up as iconoclasm. They may worship IK but he is constantly making mistakes in his political career. These mistakes are allowed to IK, but as hell they can't be allowed to a General or any other political entity or party. A human makes mistakes, only God is perfect. IK may have given everybody a chance to throw mud at Military, but how is it useful ? Its not. He is creating a divide which is actually disastrous for Pakistan in general. In my books, IK is proved wrong, time and again. Its the Military that is on the forefront helping the public. The divide that IK tried to create gets narrower through a disaster. It may be Army's responsibility but Army can shrug it off too, just like Australian Military did a times. Now Australia is just one example. Pakistan Army didnt shrug it off. Army is handling it using its military resources. Give credit where due. IK failed at his attempts. Blind worshiping of IK is not healthy, no matter how you put it. Some say he opened eyes of public about Military, well if your eyes are open then look at sacrifices of Military for the floods too. High ranking officers have been lost, but close your eyes instantly. That didnt happen, IK says turn a blind eye, lol just like Simon says.

The Civil sector has to be made strong, in fact stronger, than the Military. Civil defense, police, judiciary, civil Government departments like irrigation, transport, commerce etc, they all have to be top notch. Only then the long lost dream of a prosperous Pakistan can be achieved. Military is a system, it has strengthened itself to such a degree that Civil system fails in front of it. Military is about COAS, but they change. PTI is just about IK, who will take over after IK. This is why I called military a system. PTI isn't a system, nor is PMLN. well PMLN or PPP are systems of "Gaddi nasheen". They will have a new heir ready just like Military has a COAS. The difference between political heir and military COAS is massive. For one, military COAS's are not heirs of COAS's, not even same blood line. and there are many more.

I can go on and on and on, but for me PDF is a learning portal. There is no learning when I repeat the same things as I already know them. How can somebody learn from extremism and cursing as well as tunnel vision. At least if I talk about military, I have been very close to them system, much closer than 95% of PDF. I can open a topic on every point I made, but I find that there is no learning for me then. I stopped replying to many also as one cant learn from them. I can engage thoroughly but as soon as I see they know nothing in reality but just garbling from hear say and from news/analysis of media, I lose interest as their foundations are weak.

Ok people are corrupt but who made them "corrupt" were they born this way? The system which is run by so called servants of public be it bloody generals judges or the beaurocrats and politicians. There is a system around the world to keep check on all these wrong doings by everyone. Something that is missing or is deliberately unknown to **** establishment. Military is a system which they have used deliberately to forward their interests since 47. And only now people are coming to see them just as like other institutions thanks to social media. So that goodwill that army used has been damaged and that won't be coming back no matter how many shaheed or songs u sell to them to atleast who are tired (majority of which are middle class) of this system and those who can leave this country. That is why u see whoever come to this realisation have gone abroad in search of better life. In the past army was seen as patriotic to the cause but thanks to b****** bajwa they openly came out against public vote by siding with the corrupt which people perceived to be responsible for the whole mess. Thanks to global inflation this perception has become even more strong.

The absence of accountability is the main reason pakistan never progressed and it will remain same for foreseeable future. The army's system is as outdated as pak's panel code or SOPs of other institution.

 

[Conqueror]

Every incident that occurred in Pakistan's history can be looked at and analysed from every point of view. That will take time and dedication to reach a conclusion if and how democracy or dictatorship helped or destroyed Pakistan and in what ways. Who benefited whom. Approaching USA by Jinnah after 1947. The growth of military power in Pakistan and why public accepted that growth of power till now. The threats that Pakistan faced from 47 till now, how they were manged and how they were curbed. The important part is public perception regarding Government, Army and their own life. Pakistani public is corrupt to the core, there is no denying this. That's why a corrupt system has survived and will survive in Pakistan. Then the party-worshiping because there are jiyalas and what not of PPP, and then the youthias of PTI and the tigers of PMLN. There have been leaders in past which had a personal impact on Pakistan, like Z A Bhutto, and maybe Ayub before that. One has to see how and when Pakistan flourished economically, under which Governments. Industrial setups and other progressions.

To see the replies, in this thread and even before also, these PDF members don't even know what they want. They are speaking what media is speaking. Tell me how many PDF members are directly affected by floods right now ? The daily attendance shows that same faces post everyday. They are sitting in their bedrooms, couches in lounges, working stations etc and posting curses like bots on endless loop. They are here to comment and commenting they are, but if you ask about knowledge, all the information is from media. No analysis from any book. No sound argument, just blind following of certain agendas and the oath to protect that agenda till death. That is the average Pakistani member sitting on PDF right now. If somebody is in Pakistan, its due to Military that they are sitting freely and posting online on PDF, thats enough for me to credit to Military. As for conspiracy theories, these members forget that there were many before them in the 60's, 70's, 80, 90's, 2000's who talked of conspiracy theories against Military - the Military survives and stands and there is no force that can ever undo Military. Its such a strong functioning paradigm that it has absorbed, survives, progressed, lost, won - under numerous COASs.

The video I posted about no help arriving from Australian Govt or Australian Army was to show that even in developed countries, a lot of politics, mismanagement etc happens. I was here, I saw it. Pick up any country in the world - the public dislikes its Government, many loved Trump, many hated him. Some think Republicans are saints, others worship democrats. Sooner or later, other factors start popping up, which differentiate a country from another. These can be circumstances, enemies, public, economy, geography, weather, GDP, and many other factors. Public of other countries cannot have the leaders they want too. Some can get back in power, there are chances that Trump may return as POTUS, who knows.

Coming back to cursing military - will that effect Military? No.
Military is a system that has been here before these PDF members were born and it will stay here after they die. Generals are corrupt, well so is the Pakistani public. Take out statistics, you will be surprised. Police is corrupt, so is public. Judges are corrupt, so is public. Government is corrupt, so is public. After all, aren't Pakistanis serving in these departments or were martians called upon to serve Pakistan ? DHA is a thorn in the neck for many, Army doesn;t care. DHA is not for these PDF members, its for members of the military who served the nation. DHA itself gives tax back to Pakistan. The public can judge every officer and say the worst about those officers, but military holds their career records and OEI. Accusations will get these PDF members nowhere, but it will build a negative environment on PDF. Some senior members, including me had to wake up mods to throw these members out of military discussion threads and allow them to thrive in the political cesspool, where they can throw dirt and eat dirt as much as they want.

As for slavery of USA, the dependency of a country on other countries is a reality. China cannot trade with in itself and become powerful globally. Tough decisions are taken as compromises due to own lack of resources and technology and other circumstances. That is a reality. Pakistan became nuclear power so India doesn't capture large parts of it and keeps them after war. However, being nuclear isn't a guarantee in other aspects. Most members are unaware or dont want to know but IAF doesn't give two hoots about JFT and J-10. The only pain for IAF is F-16 and PAF knows it.

Then another important point is "extremism". You will see extremism in PDF members. Stop everything with USA, cut off from USA, don't send officers to USA, USA is a devil, USA is evil etc. An ordinary lives with his devil everyday, doesn't he ? Can you cut off from your own devil ? NO. This is extremist thinking which is a part and parcel pf Pakistani public. Yes, USA has an attached-strings policy, but then there are ways around it. Military is handling USA quite well. Civil Government also handles USA in some way or another.We do not know what happens behind doors. We will never be told. But then things won't happen 100% as PDF members here want. So thats when the cursing and swearing starts. Is that how these members solve things in their lives ? is this what has been taught to them by their parents ? I mean they are showing their family values.

There are operational procedures, procurement procedures, course/officer transfer procedures etc that these members will never understand. Either their IQ level wouldn't allow them or their biased povs. Like I said, military functions in a certain way and its functioning successfully. If it needs a change, it brings that change through a certain procedure. Not through public pressure. This cannot be digested by members here. Who cares.

One thing that I have seen is that personality worshiping can end up as iconoclasm. They may worship IK but he is constantly making mistakes in his political career. These mistakes are allowed to IK, but as hell they can't be allowed to a General or any other political entity or party. A human makes mistakes, only God is perfect. IK may have given everybody a chance to throw mud at Military, but how is it useful ? Its not. He is creating a divide which is actually disastrous for Pakistan in general. In my books, IK is proved wrong, time and again. Its the Military that is on the forefront helping the public. The divide that IK tried to create gets narrower through a disaster. It may be Army's responsibility but Army can shrug it off too, just like Australian Military did a times. Now Australia is just one example. Pakistan Army didnt shrug it off. Army is handling it using its military resources. Give credit where due. IK failed at his attempts. Blind worshiping of IK is not healthy, no matter how you put it. Some say he opened eyes of public about Military, well if your eyes are open then look at sacrifices of Military for the floods too. High ranking officers have been lost, but close your eyes instantly. That didnt happen, IK says turn a blind eye, lol just like Simon says.

The Civil sector has to be made strong, in fact stronger, than the Military. Civil defense, police, judiciary, civil Government departments like irrigation, transport, commerce etc, they all have to be top notch. Only then the long lost dream of a prosperous Pakistan can be achieved. Military is a system, it has strengthened itself to such a degree that Civil system fails in front of it. Military is about COAS, but they change. PTI is just about IK, who will take over after IK. This is why I called military a system. PTI isn't a system, nor is PMLN. well PMLN or PPP are systems of "Gaddi nasheen". They will have a new heir ready just like Military has a COAS. The difference between political heir and military COAS is massive. For one, military COAS's are not heirs of COAS's, not even same blood line. and there are many more.

I can go on and on and on, but for me PDF is a learning portal. There is no learning when I repeat the same things as I already know them. How can somebody learn from extremism and cursing as well as tunnel vision. At least if I talk about military, I have been very close to them system, much closer than 95% of PDF. I can open a topic on every point I made, but I find that there is no learning for me then. I stopped replying to many also as one cant learn from them. I can engage thoroughly but as soon as I see they know nothing in reality but just garbling from hear say and from news/analysis of media, I lose interest as their foundations are weak.

@Signalian , I suggest a deeper focus will create meaningful discussion. I'm responding to a portion from paragraph 4 which is relevant to this thread.

I sense you're responding to your ideas instead of what is being said. We are NOT attacking the institution. Let this become clear first. When you understand this part, you are likely to drop your shields and give more attention.

What exactly being said is following: There are people in Establishment (and defence forces) who because of their personal agendas are harming this country. They're supporting terrorist groups (PTM) and separatist political parties (MQM and JUIF) going against "the doctrines of the institution" propagated over the last 20 years. They are not only corrupt themselves, but they are supporting corrupt political groups damaging the two fold - but when someone points a finger at them and reveal how much harm they're causing, they conveniently HIDE behind the institution.

What they exhibit is called "Tribal Thinking" which some politicians also use to divide this Nation into groups and parts. It's a destructive thinking that leads to fragmentation. Every weak political party wants to create its interest group, like PPP has created "Sindhi party", MQM has created "Mahajir Party" and PTM is working to create "Pashtoon Party" and when members of these parties commit crimes, they seek refuge behind their created tribes: "Sindh Card", "Mahajir Card" and "Pashtoon Card" On the same lines, when corrupt military generals feel insecure, they do propaganda that "Institution is being attacked" or in other words they invent "Institution Card".

You think you love your country and institutions, guess what... we love our country and our institutions as much. There is no you and me, but we - and we want to save this homeland from every corrupt whether they are in civilian or wear some uniform. Let's stop giving all corrupt a shelter in the name of a political party, ethnicity, a tribe, or an institution. They have committed enough crimes and had enough hiding.