End Game Kashmir?

[unleashed]

Both in ajk and gb no one can buy except for the gb ajk nationals.

No way. If anyone intends to sell land then he will offer it to his/her relative first, then to neighbor and afterwards to any of the natives ....

@dadeechi

I don't know about GB ask @unleashed but they can't buy land in Ajk it's some alienation of land act law

Same is the case in GB.

 

[dadeechi]

No way. If anyone intends to sell land then he will offer it to his/her relative first, then to neighbor and afterwards to any of the natives ....

@dadeechi


Same is the case in GB.

Thanks. Good to know.

 

[Shamain]

Strange isn't it, despite all over evil atrocities / rapes / demographic engineering / 700,000 troops present, a Kashmiri on the Indian side lives a better quality life than an average Indian / Pakistani.

You and other indians here are lucky they never had to go through any of that.

 

[waz]

Do you live in Kashmir? Yet I am sure you have an opinion about the place...the straw-man of geographical distance is best left out of this.

The references that I quoted are as good as any to throw light on the matter. You are simply trying to take advantage of the fact that having denied access to the outside world to Muzaffarabad-Gilgit-Baltistan, there is an acute paucity of authorship on the subject. In that case, it is published accounts, including those from non-Indians that should be taken at face value, and not your understandable denial.

What? My family is there, who are part of the political and military setup. My ancestral roots are from there, I have lived out there and visit very often. Yes, I'm stating opinion, but one that is backed up by my own ties to that land.
"Strawman" hey! Why do you think journalists the world over risk life and limb to report from the actual geographical areas events are happening in? Amongst many other things they do so as it gives their reports a greater air of credibility, so they can verify facts for themselves, so they continue with their professional development as a journalist (through investigation) and seek to give a voice to those who are never heard. If you wish to dismiss the idea, that someone has more grounding about an issue because they have been to the region, which that issue relates to, then so be it, that's your problem. It does however spit in the face of the reporters who lost their lives in reaching dangerous and hard to reach locations in the name of press freedom.

So the world has been denied access to AJK. Well maybe when everyone from Médecins Sans Frontières, to the BBC,to the US military who poured into the region during the earthquake must also have been a construct of the Pakistani military. Just like those invasions of thousands of "Pathans and Punjabis" to alter the demographics.

It's a shame I wasted my time in answering your first post, with details surrounding the troubles in Gilgit, Pathan invasions etc, it's time I will never get back. I'll make this my last post. The affairs of the Northern areas and AJK aren't your thing. Your knowledge of the region stems from reading fictitious accounts, from far flung authors who couldn't even piece together timelines i.e. that the likes of Poonch and Rajouri (under Indian control) had significantly high populations of Phari speaking people, well before the creation of Pakistan (there goes the Pakistani demographic invasion theory), and who happen to be similar to the population of AJK. Even the Dogras would candidly admit that the population of AJK has been there for hundreds of years, after all they have been fighting the Mirpuris and Sudhans since the mid 18th century, both groups which now make up much of the population in AJK.


Oh please stop using the world denial.

 

[Jacob Martin]

Do u believe instrument ofaccession was a real thing? India till date has never shown its glimpse to anyone and still refuses to.


Someday indians will become intelligent tho i dont pin much hopes. You are comparing the hdi of a state with that of a whole country?!!

U can only compare country vs country and state vs state .....its pure common sensebut ofcourse one has to explain it to an indian. Tch tch.

Hdi is made upof three components : life expectancy at birth, GNI, mean number of school years.

Pakistan hdi is .537 ,india 0.586

Now i would suggest plz google the poverty rates of pakistan and india and see the differnece for yourself.

And btw a quote from your shared report:

‘Unless stated otherwise, all the indicators presented in this paper refer to rural and urban areas combined. Due to data limitations, the north-eastern region (including Assam) is omitted from district-level analyses, as is the state of Jammu and Kashmir. For the same reason, the reference period (unless otherwise specifi ed) is 2001, or the closest subsequent year for which the relevant data are available.‘ lolzz

And lolzz your own guy utraash is writing above that the state has just 2 engineering colleges and there is massive unemplyment in state. Booo!!!!



If kashmir is so peaceful then why is there always curfew in the valley 6 days of the week?

And as of tourists visiting the state.....how does that suggest population isnt oppressed? Do u know the tourists have access to only limited areas in iok...not entire state is open for tourism.

And as of pakistani kashmir:
Again the accounts of those tourists' visits to northern areas were publised with dawn news or other well known publications.....and btw any blog published in the reputed newspapers arent equal to the private blogs. With the newspapers only select and good quality blogs are aired not any random xyz's.

Here is someting for you.

Lavish tourist resort to be built in Gilgit-Baltistan
And i never said that tourists visit the region to verify demographics...my post was in reply to ur comment that gb ajk is a no go area for foreigners. Get that?

Have you heard of rakaposhi peak? How many climbers this lone summit attracts from all over the world? Just google where is it located and via what route you can set out on this summit expedition.

Lastly, as of resettling....lolzzz ok whatever. Btw before partition .... a large number of bhat population from kashmir vlley had migrated down to punjab.... if pakistan had to move punjab population there ...then pakistan would have settled these people to ajk.....because they are very patriotic , support pakistan and come from valley too.

Btw, you didnt answer me why pakistan is taking iok refugees and hosts around 1 lakh of them when she wants to change demographics? You are a troll and not worth my time.

Lavish resort being built, some tourists wrote a blog, kashmiri refugees in Pakistan, curfew in J&K, lolz, you are a troll, more lolz....

Is this what passes off for debate in Pakistan? No wonder....

Lol you cant prove the existence if some thing that doesnot exist Ajk, ians speak mostly pahari/potohari and if you guys think that the folks speaking it are Punjabis than a 21 gun salute to you man

Ask anyone who speaks English to decipher that for me please, 'coz I sure as hell didn't get a word of what you wrote.

 

[Zibago]

Lavish resort being built, some tourists wrote a blog, kashmiri refugees in Pakistan, curfew in J&K, lolz, you are a troll, more lolz....

Is this what passes off for debate in Pakistan? No wonder....



Ask anyone who speaks English to decipher that for me please, 'coz I sure as hell didn't get a word of what you wrote.

There never was any demograpgic change in kashmir other than killing of hindus during our liberation war. Ajk people mostly speak the pahari language and the language normally associated with kashmir koshor is a minority language here it has always been this way. The only demographic change in kashmir was immigration to Btitian

The mythical settling of punjabis post partition never happened here.Non Ajk nationals cant even buy property here

If indians believe that pahari speakers in ajk are proof of punjabi settelment than well you cant counter stupidity

 

[Jacob Martin]

What? My family is there, who are part of the political and military setup. My acnestral roots are from there, I have lived out there and visit very often. Yes, I'm stating opinion, but one that is backed up by my own ties to that land.
"Strawman" hey! Why do you think journalists the world over risk life and limb to report from the actual geographical areas events are happening in? Amongst many other things they do so as it gives their reports a greater air of credibility, so they can verify facts for themselves, so they continue with their professional development as a journalist (through investigation) and seek to give a voice to those who are never heard. If you wish to dismiss the idea, that someone has more grounding about an issue because they have been to the region, which that issue relates to, then so be it, that's your problem. It does however spit in the face of the reporters who lost their lives in reaching dangerous and hard to reach locations in the name of press freedom.

So the world has been denied access to AJK. Well maybe when everyone from Médecins Sans Frontières, to the BBC,to the US military who poured into the region during the earthquake must also have been a construct of the Pakistani military. Just like those invasions of thousands of "Pathans and Punjabis" to alter the demographics.

Your entire argument is based on flawed premises. You have discredited books written by people who have done copious research on the simplistic premise that one must report from the ground in Azad Kashmir. Using your narrative, 3/4 of all human scholarship stands discredited. You are skating on thin ice.

In any case, Read "With Friends Like These" a Human Rights Watch report on human rights violations in Azad Kashmir, taken from eyewitness accounts, among others. Now you will shift the goalpost i guess. Eyewitness accounts can be dodgy, concocted, etc., etc. So where does it end?

You make it sound as if it is a piece of cake for independent sources to walk into a troubled place in Pakistan and assess the ground reality. Here are three pieces on the perils faced by journalists in Balochistan, for instance:
A Black Hole for Media in Balochistan, Al Jazeera
Not Being Dead is a Victory for Balochistan's Journalists, The Dawn
Perils of Reporting in Balochistan, The Dawn

So nice if conditions are such that no one can report, and then lack of reporting can be used as exhibit A to show how everything is nice and fine. How convenient!

Please do not discredit scholarship due to some misplaced reliance upon "having been there". Also, will you accept my version of events about J&K? I too have been to Srinagar and Gulmarg. So my word should be the ultimate authority on the matter? How or why are we supposed to take your word over that of published authors? If you wish to discredit them, at least cite other published criticisms of their work, and not your own lazy, disingenuous dismissal.

Your entire argument is based on flawed premises. You have discredited books written by people who have done copious research on the simplistic premise that one must report from the ground in Azad Kashmir. Using your narrative, 3/4 of all human scholarship stands discredited. You are skating on thin ice.

In any case, Read "With Friends Like These" a Human Rights Watch report on human rights violations in Azad Kashmir, taken from eyewitness accounts, among others. Now you will shift the goalpost i guess. Eyewitness accounts can be dodgy, concocted, etc., etc. So where does it end?

You make it sound as if it is a piece of cake for independent sources to walk into a troubled place in Pakistan and assess the ground reality. Here are three pieces on the perils faced by journalists in Balochistan, for instance:
A Black Hole for Media in Balochistan, Al Jazeera
Not Being Dead is a Victory for Balochistan's Journalists, The Dawn
Perils of Reporting in Balochistan, The Dawn

So nice if conditions are such that no one can report, and then lack of reporting can be used as exhibit A to show how everything is nice and fine. How convenient!

Please do not discredit scholarship due to some misplaced reliance upon "having been there". Also, will you accept my version of events about J&K? I too have been to Srinagar and Gulmarg. So my word should be the ultimate authority on the matter? How or why are we supposed to take your word over that of published authors? If you wish to discredit them, at least cite other published criticisms of their work, and not your own lazy, disingenuous dismissal.

Let me end this disingenuous interaction by quoting from the Human Rights Watch report:

Aid organizations and donors that wanted to learn about Azad Kashmir after the earthquake so that they could respond in a useful and informed manner quickly discovered that there was virtually no published information. This is because prior to the earthquake, Azad Kashmir was one of the most closed territories in the world. While Jammu and Kashmir state had known considerable tourist traffic prior to the beginning of the insurgency there, the areas of Kashmir on the other side of the LoC had seen little external interest or presence after the end of the British colonial era in 1947—a situation used by Pakistan to exercise absolute control over the territory.

Enough said.

There never was any demograpgic change in kashmir other than killing of hindus during our liberation war. Ajk people mostly speak the pahari language and the language normally associated with kashmir koshor is a minority language here it has always been this way. The only demographic change in kashmir was immigration to Btitian

The mythical settling of punjabis post partition never happened here.Non Ajk nationals cant even buy property here

If indians believe that pahari speakers in ajk are proof of punjabi settelment than well you cant counter stupidity

What cultural similarities do the Mirpuri Jats share with the people in the valley? They don't even speak the same language.

 

[Zibago]

Your entire argument is based on flawed premises. You have discredited books written by people who have done copious research on the simplistic premise that one must report from the ground in Azad Kashmir. Using your narrative, 3/4 of all human scholarship stands discredited. You are skating on thin ice.

In any case, Read "With Friends Like These" a Human Rights Watch report on human rights violations in Azad Kashmir, taken from eyewitness accounts, among others. Now you will shift the goalpost i guess. Eyewitness accounts can be dodgy, concocted, etc., etc. So where does it end?

You make it sound as if it is a piece of cake for independent sources to walk into a troubled place in Pakistan and assess the ground reality. Here are three pieces on the perils faced by journalists in Balochistan, for instance:
A Black Hole for Media in Balochistan, Al Jazeera
Not Being Dead is a Victory for Balochistan's Journalists, The Dawn
Perils of Reporting in Balochistan, The Dawn

So nice if conditions are such that no one can report, and then lack of reporting can be used as exhibit A to show how everything is nice and fine. How convenient!

Please do not discredit scholarship due to some misplaced reliance upon "having been there". Also, will you accept my version of events about J&K? I too have been to Srinagar and Gulmarg. So my word should be the ultimate authority on the matter? How or why are we supposed to take your word over that of published authors? If you wish to discredit them, at least cite other published criticisms of their work, and not your own lazy, disingenuous dismissal.



Let me end this disingenuous interaction by quoting from the Human Rights Watch report:

Aid organizations and donors that wanted to learn about Azad Kashmir after the earthquake so that they could respond in a useful and informed manner quickly discovered that there was virtually no published information. This is because prior to the earthquake, Azad Kashmir was one of the most closed territories in the world. While Jammu and Kashmir state had known considerable tourist traffic prior to the beginning of the insurgency there, the areas of Kashmir on the other side of the LoC had seen little external interest or presence after the end of the British colonial era in 1947—a situation used by Pakistan to exercise absolute control over the territory.

Enough said.



What cultural similarities do the Mirpuri Jats share with the people in the valley? They don't even speak the same language.

No outside interaction?

And not all of Azad Kashmiris speak pahari nor are all mirpuris jutts

 

[Jacob Martin]

No outside interaction?

And not all of Azad Kashmiris speak pahari nor are all mirpuris jutts

Sending masses of people to England is not the same as being open to outside scrutiny. Do not be confused.

 

[Zibago]

200,000 British Pakistanis visit the district of Mirpur every year and guess what they call themselves Pakistanis

Sending masses of people to England is not the same as being open to outside scrutiny. Do not be confused.

Western journalists are allowed in Ajk though allowing indians in ajk serves no purpose

 

[Shamain]

Lavish resort being built, some tourists wrote a blog, kashmiri refugees in Pakistan, curfew in J&K, lolz, you are a troll, more lolz....

Is this what passes off for debate in Pakistan? No wonder....

Which tourist wrote a blog? I never mentioned any blog. Curfews in jk is a news that shows in ur newspapers. Kashmiri refugees ...are staying in UNO refugee camps setup in muzzafrabad.

U cant reject my points like this. This is so much julm,jiadti ,atyachaar ka achaar.

Your entire argument is based on flawed premises. You have discredited books written by people who have done copious research on the simplistic premise that one must report from the ground in Azad Kashmir. Using your narrative, 3/4 of all human scholarship stands discredited. You are skating on thin ice.

In any case, Read "With Friends Like These" a Human Rights Watch report on human rights violations in Azad Kashmir, taken from eyewitness accounts, among others. Now you will shift the goalpost i guess. Eyewitness accounts can be dodgy, concocted, etc., etc. So where does it end?

You make it sound as if it is a piece of cake for independent sources to walk into a troubled place in Pakistan and assess the ground reality. Here are three pieces on the perils faced by journalists in Balochistan, for instance:
A Black Hole for Media in Balochistan, Al Jazeera
Not Being Dead is a Victory for Balochistan's Journalists, The Dawn
Perils of Reporting in Balochistan, The Dawn

So nice if conditions are such that no one can report, and then lack of reporting can be used as exhibit A to show how everything is nice and fine. How convenient!

Please do not discredit scholarship due to some misplaced reliance upon "having been there". Also, will you accept my version of events about J&K? I too have been to Srinagar and Gulmarg. So my word should be the ultimate authority on the matter? How or why are we supposed to take your word over that of published authors? If you wish to discredit them, at least cite other published criticisms of their work, and not your own lazy, disingenuous dismissal.



Let me end this disingenuous interaction by quoting from the Human Rights Watch report:

Aid organizations and donors that wanted to learn about Azad Kashmir after the earthquake so that they could respond in a useful and informed manner quickly discovered that there was virtually no published information. This is because prior to the earthquake, Azad Kashmir was one of the most closed territories in the world. While Jammu and Kashmir state had known considerable tourist traffic prior to the beginning of the insurgency there, the areas of Kashmir on the other side of the LoC had seen little external interest or presence after the end of the British colonial era in 1947—a situation used by Pakistan to exercise absolute control over the territory.

Enough said.

So if pakistan has settled outsiders there , then how come she didnt offer them any help in earth quake relief.??? Like pakistan was changing demograhics to earn support and then when earthquake comes she doesnt allow help to the same fake ajk population??

And then u said human rights violations?? So pakistan does rights violation against fake ajkites??? Why?

What cultural similarities do the Mirpuri Jats share with the people in the valley? They don't even speak the same language.

They are rajputs ,gujjar castes , anyways whichever the caste ,they and valley kashmiris are different ethnic groups,diff cultures. Btw mirpur also has lot of dars, butts and mirs.

 

[Jacob Martin]

200,000 British Pakistanis visit the district of Mirpur every year and guess what they call themselves Pakistanis


Western journalists are allowed in Ajk though allowing indians in ajk serves no purpose

Mirpuris are supposed to call themselves Pakistanis. The Pakistani state made them the principle power-brokers in a land where they are the minority. They can surely show their gratitude.

As for foreign journalists, read the Human Rights Watch paper I mentioned. It says otherwise.

 

[Shamain]

Mirpuris are supposed to call themselves Pakistanis. The Pakistani state made them the principle power-brokers in a land where they are the minority. They can surely show their gratitude.

As for foreign journalists, read the Human Rights Watch paper I mentioned. It says otherwise.

Share the humin writes watchman paipur link here.

 

[Zibago]

Mirpuris are supposed to call themselves Pakistanis. The Pakistani state made them the principle power-brokers in a land where they are the minority. They can surely show their gratitude.

As for foreign journalists, read the Human Rights Watch paper I mentioned. It says otherwise.

Ha now he is claiming mirpuris control kashmir @Shamain lol
I mean after watching a bbc documentry from mirpur you still believe no foreign journalists are allowed?

 

[Shamain]

Ha now he is claiming mirpuris control kashmir @Shamain lol
I mean after watching a bbc documentry from mirpur you still believe no foreign journalists are allowed?

Hahaha i know lolzzzz i was also like mirpuris controlling what is he saying.

And then he isnt sharing that rights groups link???? Where is the link.

Btw fakre mirpur , Dogras are a rajput clan.

Btw dogri is 95 pc pahari with kamme and kanne as two diff words lolzzzz