Elections every five years a tragedy: PM Imran Khan

[Jungibaaz]

Sisi says hello.

What do you guys think about this?

1. Elections every 10 years.
2. Government formed.
3. 5 year plan with tangiable goals sets in the SMART format.
4. Action plan is ratified by parliament.
5. Review at the end of 5 years. If success rate is below 66% the opposition have the right to call for an election, otherwise 10 year term is completed with a new 5 year plan which is reviewed at the end of the term, with mandatory election.

Nothing wrong with that in theory apart from who's to be the judge of whether a plan is executed successfully or not, or even to measure it. Your plan could work. However, every government on earth considers their tenure a success, and every opposition hammers them as failures. The power would lie entirely with the arbitrator or arbitration process of step 5 of your process.

IMO keeping roughly the same parliamentary system would work fine, as long as its principles are properly abided by and its allowed to run sufficiently long enough for errors to be corrected and a system to be established.

Sir with all due respect you never understood my point.

The reason why Dictators have to step in is because of our political setup. They had no other choice as it concerned the very survival of state.
The things we do not understand is there is no democracy to begin with, there are no green shoots of democracy that dictators trample upon. These family enterprises are monarchies, they are the biggest dictators that have destroyed our state institutions to the core through nepotism and favouritism (the very opposite of democracy) Their only aim is to consolidate their power for their generations. Democracy is just a way they take to take over the state, it's a mafia where politics is business for them.

Unless we change the very foundations of democracy in our country there is no hope for Pakistan. Just an endless loop of destruction followed by state correcting it's course for it's very survival. If you go back to the circumstances which warranted the state to step in you will find your answer where the flaw lies.

The part in bold is 100% true and I agree with it, but as for your view that these dictators were intervening because they had to for the sake of the country, or because of civilian incompetency. I disagree, they intervened for power and only when it suited them.

Every politician on earth think's he's doing God's work, and that his designs are altruistic, it's true of Nelson Mandelas, and it's true of genocidal maniacs.

But in Pakistan we've never actually tasted true democracy, proper abiding by law and constitution of quasi-civilian, hybrid, and/or quasi-military governments. Dictators will always attempt to justify their illegitimate actions by saying thus: "people who came before were corrupt", "the country was headed in the wrong direction", "our hand was forced...", "democracy was flawed before, we will correct it". Every single one of them acted this way and used this justification, that includes Iskander Mirza, Ayub, Bhutto himself, Zia, even Nawaz did this in 1990, and then Musharraf.

I pay very little heed to what they claim motivates them. There's an idiom or proverb I heard recently that comes to mind: it goes something like "observe people's actions to judge them, not their words.". Musharraf for example might never have toppled the government if it were not for an expected comeuppance that was to follow Kargil. Anyway, I digress, you get my point right?

BTW bro the essence of his speech is not what we are discussing.

What he is pointing out is the inherent flaw where every political government tries to wow it's support base at the expense of the state. What he is actually referring to is a strong memory in the institutions and their autonomy irrespective of who comes in power. There should be a mechanism of institutional autonomy so they can take a stand against actions that are not in the interest of the state.

For example state bank autonomy so no one can manipulate dollar. Nepra autonomy so no one can sign expensive deals. Commerce division autonomy, autonomy in institutions under planning division so they can carry on a set plan of progression. Complete de politicization of bureaucracy to curb the way of nepotism and favouritism, by limiting the authority in posting, promotions based on political affiliation. This is how previously family enterprises flourished by compromising state institutions and made them family centric instead of loyal to state.

@Jungibaaz

Hear hear on autonomy, as for term lengths, the debate goes on.

 

[Jungibaaz]

A more funnier question would be that what if we had this 15 year long PM tenure and nawaz or zardari got elected or maryaam? Would they still support such a long tenure or is the constitution to contain a specific sub-article stating that it can only be used by favourite prime minister's only?


It is the thirst and hunger for power. Liaqat Ali, one of the major members of the party that literally placed the creation and fornation of this country to a vote and election, openly held that democracy was not desirable in Pakistan since a country with 15 percent literacy rate cannot be expected to be a democracy. The same illiterate people that consciously chose for Pakistan in an election that everyone knew would make or break Pakistan but it didn't stop him from delaying the constitutional process of the country. Ghulam Muhammad and islander Mirza and ayub khan simply followed that thinking and this was especially brought into more complication considering the political awareness of east Pakistan and the multiple movements and the results of the 1953 provincial election.

Nawaz sharif also made this excuse in 2011-2012 I think that five years are not enough to bring change and government should be more long lasting.

In the end it is futile. The 5 year parliamentary system has been enshrined in our constitution and can't be amended unless we are talking martial law, which they won't do at all..


The constitution does have a provision which can delay the election for a year based on an emergency.

Or he can hold the election and win based on no other viable option and have the independents get a few phone calls

Excellent points. Almost forgot about Liaquat Ali Khan. IMO two of the most damaging ideas were firstly this, that democracy is not suitable because Pakistanis are too stupid to govern themselves, hence the need for benevolent civilian and military dictators. And secondly Nazriya-e-Zaroorat (Doctrine of Necessity), the architect of which (then CJP) deeply regretted his role.

I think in the absence of this, by now we may have rid ourselves of family dynasties like Sharif and Bhutto/Zardaris, backward feudalistic systems, and we'd have a stable system of governance with some good results.

 

[SQ8]

Sounds like another Hosni Mubarak in the making

 

[Norwegian]

Thank you for posting and yes he is absolutely right about everything. A country cannot progress with just short term goals in punjabi we say "dung tapao". That was our policy between 2008 to 2018.
Ironically I had been present in a high-level meeting held in Islamabad between 2013 to 2014 and I am quoting you the exact words from the great visionary leader Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif "hum nay bus plant laganaye hain jaldi sai jaldi, kemat ka farak nahi parta bus hum nay dekhana hai kay hum nay wada pura ker diya" some of the foreigners and other sane minds from the private sector could not understand this mindset so came another statement "inn 5 saal mai bus lagayen gaye, agli hakomat ayee tou dekhayen gaye keemat ka warna jiski ayee gee uska masla hai" followed by an evil laughter and grin

He is absolutely right. Election based policies have destroyed this country. Not to mention just the long term consequences of these policies but also the corruption as electables need to recover their investment with interest to prepare for an another cycle of loot and plunder.

It is quiet evident from the macroeconomic condition in 2018, there is a reason why every time Plmn term ends country is at the brink of default. Look what they did from 2013-18, install projects which have no financial merit, install power plants without economic feasibility, expand imports and subsidize dollar to increase consumption to inflate GDP, take over state bank and print money and to balance it off flood the market with cheap goods to control inflation. All short term election based policies. They get ample opportunities to get commission, corruption while leaving the country for others to fix. This time there was an alternate otherwise there was a guaranteed martial law.

This system has failed and is held hostage to dynasties, PTI is just holding it afloat otherwise there was a reckoning and a powerful administrative setup on cards to replace this system.

There is a reason why all vocal anti Pakistan forces (dissent is the new term they coined to veil their treason) and foreign countries who want to keep Pakistan limping come in support to these parties.

Remember PMLN was crying for Charter of Finance, even after elections in his first speech Shehbaz Sharif proposed this and Imran Khan countered this which red face "I WILL NOT GIVE AN NRO". Which long term planning are you referring?? PMLN presented vision-2010 in 1999 and presented another Vision-2025 in 2015, Imran Khan and opposition termed it Khilafat and Bari, no suport was lend by Imran Khan that time.

Now he just want another term and no planning is envisaged.

Here is your vision Patwari.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Here is your vision Patwari.

It will be very difficult for stunted growth foreign and domestic Patwari's to understand that how governments in past few decades have been working on short-term solutions causing immense loses to the state in long-term. All they see is IK asking a longer-term not the actual issue he is trying to highlight, of-course to understand that one needs to have a certain abilities which are non-existent in these nooni-toons. .

This actually reflects their true mental abilities

https://twitter.com/x/status/1353413233869250561

 

[Norwegian]

It will be very difficult for stunted growth foreign and domestic Patwari's to understand that how governments in past few decades have been working on short-term solutions causing immense loses to the state in long-term. All they see is IK asking a longer-term not the actual issue he is trying to highlight, of-course to understand that one needs to have a certain abilities which are non-existent in these nooni-toons. .

Patwari will just blame some army general to mask his own party's incompetence.

 

[Patriot forever]

Sounds like another Hosni Mubarak in the making

Why not Erdogan or Mahatir Muhammad? I will relate Hosni Mubarak and Bashar ul Asad with the opposition

Anyways that's not what he said, he was talking about the continuity of the system in an autonomous way not his own term.

 

[Black.Mamba]

Why not Erdogan or Mahatir Muhammad? I will relate Hosni Mubarak and Bashar ul Asad with the opposition

Anyways that's not what he said, he was talking about the continuity of the system in an autonomous way not his own term.

I have a lot of Egyptian friends and they are always remembering Hosni Mubarak in great words and SISI we can all imagine

 

[Jungibaaz]

I have a lot of Egyptian friends and they are always remembering Hosni Mubarak in great words and SISI we can all imagine

Honest answer: they both suck.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Prime Minister Imran Khan Thursday said no nation could move forward without long-term planning and it was tragic that governments in Pakistan could not make long-term planning due to the general election every five years.

Addressing a function here in connection with documentary-drama (Paani ke Pankh), he termed the 10 years of PPP and PML-N governments from 2008 through 2018 the decade of darkness, marred by massive corruption, political expediency and inefficiency.

“When criminals become country heads, then no country can develop. So, one has to have faith in oneself. There are talented Pakistanis in every field outside Pakistan. The country’s system has to be fixed,” he said.

“It takes a little time; people should not worry that the change has not come yet. It takes time to change the mindset. It’s tragic that in our country elections are held every five years due to which we do not have a long-term plan,” he continued.
He said dams were built with a long-term plan and cited China as a country that is becoming the world's fastest growing economic power and superpower because of long-term planning.

“When we visited China, they told us what they were going to do in the next 10 to 20 years. No nation can move forward unless it has a long-term plan and thinks ahead. Unfortunately, we have a period of five years. We try to accomplish everything in five years, spend billions of rupees on advertisements and then fight elections on it,” he pointed out.

Imran believed that this handicap had done a lot of damage to Pakistan. “We have made decisions in a short period of time due to which we generate the most expensive electricity in the entire subcontinent. Whether we buy electricity or not, the agreements are such that in 2013 we had to pay Rs180 billion a month to the power producers as compulsory payment. When our government came, it was Rs500 billion,” he noted.

Elections every five years a tragedy: Imran

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Imran Khan Thursday said no nation could move forward without long-term planning and it was tragic that governments in Pakistan could not make long-term planning due to the...

www.thenews.com.pk

View attachment 711650

He is right in a way we have no long term planning.. and new govt never supports policies of previous govt which results in a total change of system hence starting from Zero...

We should have long term planning somehow..

 

[Patriot forever]

Nothing wrong with that in theory apart from who's to be the judge of whether a plan is executed successfully or not, or even to measure it. Your plan could work. However, every government on earth considers their tenure a success, and every opposition hammers them as failures. The power would lie entirely with the arbitrator or arbitration process of step 5 of your process.

IMO keeping roughly the same parliamentary system would work fine, as long as its principles are properly abided by and its allowed to run sufficiently long enough for errors to be corrected and a system to be established.



The part in bold is 100% true and I agree with it, but as for your view that these dictators were intervening because they had to for the sake of the country, or because of civilian incompetency. I disagree, they intervened for power and only when it suited them.

Every politician on earth think's he's doing God's work, and that his designs are altruistic, it's true of Nelson Mandelas, and it's true of genocidal maniacs.

But in Pakistan we've never actually tasted true democracy, proper abiding by law and constitution of quasi-civilian, hybrid, and/or quasi-military governments. Dictators will always attempt to justify their illegitimate actions by saying thus: "people who came before were corrupt", "the country was headed in the wrong direction", "our hand was forced...", "democracy was flawed before, we will correct it". Every single one of them acted this way and used this justification, that includes Iskander Mirza, Ayub, Bhutto himself, Zia, even Nawaz did this in 1990, and then Musharraf.

I pay very little heed to what they claim motivates them. There's an idiom or proverb I heard recently that comes to mind: it goes something like "observe people's actions to judge them, not their words.". Musharraf for example might never have toppled the government if it were not for an expected comeuppance that was to follow Kargil. Anyway, I digress, you get my point right?


Hear hear on autonomy, as for term lengths, the debate goes on.

Sir the type of autocratic democracy we have, we can only breed monarchies. That is the reason why we people never tasted true democracy. If you want to further understand the psyche of our people electables based on baraidirism, waderism are a prime example. Same is the culture in our so called democratic parties. I will support IK as long as he doesn't bring his sons to govern on us or takes more than 2 terms. This is true democracy.

Sir if you look back the events that led to intervention, economic destruction, absolute compromise of state machinery. They went as far as offering generals cars (bribery) to incite mutiny in the last remaining autonomous institute. What would have happened if army had not intervened? Do you really think state would have survived? Army has always intervened to restore the balance of power between the state and family dynasties. Do you really think we can ever have a true democracy in the presence of such mindset?

As far as your last point we can truly see the state bank working autonomously. It's a start. It wasn't easy doing that. Achieving sustained primary surplus is not easy as compared. All of these things came at significant political cost. The mindset is there at the top. Agreements are done on merit as seen in recent signing of hydro power projects and many other such instances be it negotiation for ML1 or similar deals.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Remember PMLN was crying for Charter of Finance, even after elections in his first speech Shehbaz Sharif proposed this and Imran Khan countered this which red face "I WILL NOT GIVE AN NRO". Which long term planning are you referring?? PMLN presented vision-2010 in 1999 and presented another Vision-2025 in 2015, Imran Khan and opposition termed it Khilafat and Bari, no suport was lend by Imran Khan that time.

Now he just want another term and no planning is envisaged.

Lmao Vision 2010 and Vision 2025 Bahi without merit and feasibility jo blunder of projects 2018 tak bnaye woh kisne bnaye ?

Jo bongia Qarzo k anbhar le k dollar rate ko low rakh k or import based economy k sir pe mulk rakh k mari woh yaad nai hain ?

PMLN had no long term goals they only looted through whatever means they had...

Jab establishment biwi raazi, to kya karega qazi?
It's a tacit confession that voters don't decide who governs the country.

Wtf R.I.P. logic..

 

[313ghazi]

Nothing wrong with that in theory apart from who's to be the judge of whether a plan is executed successfully or not, or even to measure it. Your plan could work. However, every government on earth considers their tenure a success, and every opposition hammers them as failures. The power would lie entirely with the arbitrator or arbitration process of step 5 of your process.

IMO keeping roughly the same parliamentary system would work fine, as long as its principles are properly abided by and its allowed to run sufficiently long enough for errors to be corrected and a system to be established.

That's why I said the plan would have to have SMART objectives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria

In fact all parties should have these SMART objectives in their manifestos and they should be the basis on what they are elected on.

So currently were a manifesto will state "we're going to create houses for the poor and needy", a smart objective would state;

1. "we aim to build 50,000 new 3 bedroom homes a year, priced at x rupees,"

2. "above stated houses will only be available for those with a household income less than x rupees and total assets worth less than Y ruppees".

Of course this will never happen. Politicians aren't interested in that.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

PMLN completed Terbela-IV and Neelum Jhelum, funds were arranged for Terbela-V, Karot Hydropower Project and Azad Pattan Hydropower Project beside Wind, solar and nuclear power plants.

Expensive FO or diesel based power projects were discouraged, and cheap fuel like coal and gas based plants were installed.

Hydro projects were less and expansive we have a huge canal system that can easily be modified with small turbines for power generation...

Solar: Quaid e Azam Solar park had 80% efficiency when it was launched but its efficiency dropped to 40% because of it being in dusty environment of Bhawalpur area... and no cleaning being done..

Wind: which project was launched or completed?

And Nuclear kab se sun rehe hain ab ja k aik plant operational hua he 2020 k end pe I think..


And most importantly they missed the key element the grid system and power supply lines... which are trash... goro k zamane ki..

 

[AZ1]

We need new system or give enough power to prime minister. This way he can be accountable. Currently any prime minister can say i dont have power over this and that.

Either full power or no election.