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Dutch Submarine Sinks Half of US Navy CTF in 1990 and more

Major Shaitan Singh

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Roger Thompson is Professor of Military Studies at Knightsbridge University and a Fellow of the Inter-University Seminar on Armed Forces and Society.

In 1981, The NATO exercise Ocean Venture ended with much embarrassment for the U.S. Navy, and more specifically, its enormously expensive aircraft carrier battle groups.

During the exercise, a Canadian submarine slipped quietly through a carrier's destroyer screen, and conducted a devastating simulated torpedo attack on the ship. The submarine was never detected, and when the exercise umpire, a U.S. Navy officer, pronounced the carrier dead, his official report was promptly stamped classified to minimize the potential fallout. Unfortunately, a Canadian submariner leaked the story to a local newspaper, and indicated that this successful Canadian attack on an American supercarrier was by no means an isolated incident. This news caused quite a stir in Congress, and the U.S. Navy had a lot of explaining to do. Why indeed had a small, 1960s-vintage diesel submarine of the under-funded Canadian Navy been able to defeat one of America s most powerful and expensive warships, and with such apparent ease?

There are several possible answers. Firstly, Canadian submariners are extremely well trained and professional. Secondly, at that time, the Oberon submarines used by the Canadian Navy were probably the quietest in the world. A third possible reason, not so commonly stated, and with all due respect, is that the mighty U.S. Navy is simply overrated. It is my humble contention that the U.S. Navy is not all it's cracked up to be, and that is the focus of the present article.

Diesel Subs Feast on U.S. Carriers

While Canadian submarines have routinely taken on U.S. Navy carriers, other small navies have enjoyed similar victories. The Royal Netherlands Navy, with its small force of extremely quiet diesel submarines, has made the U.S. Navy eat the proverbial slice of humble pie on more than one occasion. In 1989, naval analyst Norman Polmar wrote in Naval Forces that during NATO s exercise Northern Star, the Dutch submarine Zwaardvis was the only orange (enemy) submarine to successfully stalk and sink a blue (allied) aircraft carrier Ten years later there were reports that the Dutch submarine Walrus had been even more successful in the exercise JTFEX/TMDI99.

During this exercise the Walrus penetrates the U.S. screen and sinks many ships, including the U.S. aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T- shirt. Fittingly, the T-shirt depicted the USS Theodore Roosevelt impaled on the tusks of a walrus. It was also reported that the Walrus also sank many of the Roosevelt's escorts, including the nuclear submarine USS Boise, a cruiser, several destroyers and frigates, plus the command ship USS Mount Whitney. The Walrus herself survived the exercise with no damage.

Not to be outdone by the Canadians and Dutch, the Australian submarine force has also scored many goals against U.S. Navy carriers and nuclear submarines. On September 24 2003, the Australian newspaper The Age disclosed that Australia's Collins class diesel submarines had taught the U.S. Navy a few lessons during multinational exercises. By the end of the exercises, Australian submarines had destroyed two U.S. Navy nuclear attack submarines and an aircraft carrier. According to the article: The Americans were wide-eyed, Commodore Deeks (Commander of the RAN Submarine Group) said. They realized that another navies knows how to operate submarines.
They were quite impressed.



Dutch sub looking at USN carrier

scope_tijgerhaai2_uss_america_med_oct93_2.jpg
 
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Its quite common theme, from 1960s-vintage diesel submarine sinking US warships, to Millennium 2002 Challenge, which sunk almost entire US fleet.

What I found surprising, initial embarrassment happened in 1981, you would think US would take care of a defensive flaw against silent diesel subs, right? In 1989 it happened again, and again in 2003. Guess what, US is threatening Iran, who is stacking such subs :azn:
 
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WoW

I think you guys are forgetting one important aspect of these exercises!

No torpedoes are fired, that is why the sub goes undetected, and a diesel/electric submarine of any era is almost impossible to detect on electric motors silent run.

In a real life scenario though, when the first torpedo was fired, the sound from the launch tubes, would alert the sonar crews of all listening ships and subs, and failing to pin point the sub, they would actively ping the area, rather than risk losing the carrier.
 
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The constraints of the exercise are not mentioned, that sets off warning sirens to me. These excercises that go wrong tend to have rules/conditions that put the US airforce at an automatic disadvantage. Anyone willing to dig up the exercise conditions if they've been declassified to see if this holds true for the US navy as well?

Also I'd much rather have these errors occur in exercises with close allies than hostile combat, luckily we've kept it that way.
 
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WoW

I think you guys are forgetting one important aspect of these exercises!

No torpedoes are fired, that is why the sub goes undetected, and a diesel/electric submarine of any era is almost impossible to detect on electric motors silent run.

In a real life scenario though, when the first torpedo was fired, the sound from the launch tubes, would alert the sonar crews of all listening ships and subs, and failing to pin point the sub, they would actively ping the area, rather than risk losing the carrier.
The constraints of the exercise are not mentioned, that sets off warning sirens to me. These excercises that go wrong tend to have rules/conditions that put the US airforce at an automatic disadvantage. Anyone willing to dig up the exercise conditions if they've been declassified to see if this holds true for the US navy as well?

Also I'd much rather have these errors occur in exercises with close allies than hostile combat, luckily we've kept it that way.
Guys, these are details and those who exercise critical thinking skills and if those skills are supplemented by actual military experience, details matter. But for those who have neither of the mentioned items, the details you mentioned are irrelevant because they put proper perspectives and contexts to the event. That is anathema to these people. It is common that the less military experience they have, the greater the impetus for them to bloviate about things they know nothing about.
 
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In real war scenario carrier battle group is travaling at high speed (over 20 knots) and sumbarine will have every hard time to catch it up. And if it tries it will be easily detected.
 
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Guys, these are details and those who exercise critical thinking skills and if those skills are supplemented by actual military experience, details matter. But for those who have neither of the mentioned items, the details you mentioned are irrelevant because they put proper perspectives and contexts to the event. That is anathema to these people. It is common that the less military experience they have, the greater the impetus for them to bloviate about things they know nothing about.
I agree.. forget us net warriors. There r some militory journos from india with little or no exp, take free ride on air force jets and behave like demi gods.
 
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In real war scenario carrier battle group is travaling at high speed (over 20 knots) and sumbarine will have every hard time to catch it up. And if it tries it will be easily detected.
Whoa...!!! More relevant details...!!! Cannot compute...Cannot compute...!!!
 
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Guyz i have a question.

Since WW2 has there been any actual submarine battle anywhere in the world ? and by submarine battle i mean sub vs ship or sub vs sub (no 65,faklands any other than those)
 
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I agree.. forget us net warriors. There r some militory journos from india with little or no exp, take free ride on air force jets and behave like demi gods.
Those of us who served or worked in the defense industry or both like me -- do.
 
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500 is right if u play those extremely accurate subs sims u can easily know that a submerged sub can max out at 7-10 knots while a carrier travels at 30 knots.

lol i tried to sunk a carrier with my silent battery running in sh5 and believe unless u are just standing outside the port or are at natural choke point its very difficult to catch up to a carrier.
 
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Guyz i have a question.

Since WW2 has there been any actual submarine battle anywhere in the world ? and by submarine battle i mean sub vs ship or sub vs sub (no 65,faklands any other than those)
The Hunt For Red October -- excellent documentary.
 
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I remember PAF Mirages painting USS Abe Lincoln red during an Pak-US naval ex....
 
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The Hunt For Red October -- excellent documentary.

I haven't watched the documentary but i have watched the film. Though i think das boot takes the lead in presenting the most authentic sub experience not only from a warfare perspective but also from the psychological and mental perspective too.


Anyways guyz i would be very glad if someone shared the confrontation between a sub vs a sub or a sub vs a ship preferably of equivalent technological and training levels cause i cant think of any such confrontation since WW2.
 
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