Diplomats who commit crimes shouldn’t get a free pass

[jaunty]

Mate - if India does something for a RAW official I would totally understand the moral standing. Even if he does not have the immunity, it would have been a very appropriate case. And even if the PM of India says something on the contrary or lies on his diplomatic status, I could understand.

But Devyani's?

It doesn't matter. The US would do the same thing again for a genuine diplomat/consular official too. I could care less about the individual. It's not about that. The Indian govt is trying to safeguard the interests of its diplomats the same way the US does or would do. Therefore, regardless of the outcome, the lectures on morality is nauseating.

 

[Sashan]

It doesn't matter. The US would do the same thing again for a genuine diplomat/consular official too. I could care less about the individual. It's not about that. The Indian govt is trying to safeguard the interests of its diplomats the same way the US does or would do. Therefore, regardless of the outcome, the lectures on morality is nauseating.

Cool. Lets disagree to disagree mate.

 

[Bombermanx1]

Seems USA is in a shock, that they need to keep printing these articles to reassure themselves and change public view,PR spin doctors at their best, hint how the maid was exploited every now and then,character assasinate the diplomat ,quoting rich and poor divide,how the poor always gets the boot while the rich is free.
But that is for American public consumption, as far as India goes it's stand is clear no backing down,and america can do their worst.Arresting that diplomat again will only get USA diplomats arrested here who evaded indian laws as the police has records of who did what, it is only a matter of reopening the case.

 

[RescueRanger]

Should apply universally, no more Raymond Diamonds please!

 

[Hulk]

The difference is the crime committed by Raymond Davis is in the official line of business. He felt a threat and he shot those two guys. Devyani's is her personal business and nothing to do with anything official. So there is a whole lot of difference and moral standing on both the issues.

Shashan, as I understand while the maid was working for her this arrangement was blessed by government of India. This is the reason she had white passport. If it was a question of her doing in personal capacity to get a maid to comfort her, I will not support her.

 

[Sashan]

Shashan, as I understand while the maid was working for her this arrangement was blessed by government of India. This is the reason she had white passport. If it was a question of her doing in personal capacity to get a maid to comfort her, I will not support her.

Mate - I agree A3 visas has the official passport but the wage contract has nothing to do with GOI nor GOI is privy to what wages has been quoted in the wage contract. Nor GOI approval is needed on the transactions happening between the consular official and her maid.

 

[Dubious]

Real diplomats have full diplomatic immunity in accordance with the Vienna convention. There is no if and but. It is the international law. Law doesn't have to make sense.

sadly that is how many problems happen....

If the article is referring to the Indian consul general Devyani Khobragade, then it is a different story. This woman is no diplomat. She is a glorified clerk. This woman has/had limited diplomatic immunity. My guess is limited to void a parking ticket and that's it.

A glorified clerk being pushed for UN?

 

[Solomon2]

The lawyers of the victim's families claimed that they had been forced to accept the money. Blood money is only acceptable if the family accepts it. They were clearly coerced into accepting it.

Does that mean RD is liable for prosecution even if the families keep the money?

So back on-topic - should these 5 be tried in Pakistan for the crimes they committed, regardless of their diplomatic status?

Remember, the precise status and offense matter as to whether somebody can be prosecuted or not.

 

[Solomon2]

In the Raymond Davis case president Obama himself stated that RD had full diplomatic immunity which was a lie and Pakistan didn't grant him -

There is a misconception here. By the Vienna Conventions you don't get dip immunity when the receiving country grants it to you; you get dip immunity when the sending country (usually yours) requests it and the request is received by the receiving country's foreign ministry; it's then up to the receiving country to issue a rejection.

In Davis' case the U.S. claimed to have a receipt of their request for dip immunity for Davis from the Pakistani Foreign Ministry. The FM would not acknowledge this. From there things get murky and confused. Nonetheless, it appears the U.S. stuck to the legalities of Pakistan: if RD didn't have dip-immunity, then the "blood money" paid stands as a conviction-and-fine. To further pursue him would be double jeopardy.

In the Khobragade case the Indians claim to have submitted to the U.N. a request for immunity back in August. I saw a copy of what was purported to be the request on an Indian news site; it is totally illegible. Such a request has to be bounced off both the U.N. and then the U.S. If the Indians have a real receipt of the request to the U.N., the U.N. next has to produce a receipt of its request to the United States; without the receipts, there's no U.N. dip-immunity. I imagine the U.S., too, is chasing about looking for requests and receipts; if these are mythical, the process takes longer.

But even if Khobragade has the dip-immunity it's not supposed to matter. Article 14 of the 1946 U.N. Personnel Convention says dip-immunity isn't supposed to be used to avoid prosecution and the sending state - in this case, India - is to waive it in such instances.

Post Script: This logic doesn't apply for American diplomats!

Except that it has, and continues to be, applied to American diplomats - what you display is simply proud ignorance.

Mate - I agree A3 visas has the official passport but the wage contract has nothing to do with GOI nor GOI is privy to what wages has been quoted in the wage contract. Nor GOI approval is needed on the transactions happening between the consular official and her maid.

Yeah, someone posted a commentary from her ex-boss here, of the usual I-warned-them-but-nobody-listened-to-me-though-I-went-along-with-everyone-else excuse one hears and reads all-too-often from Indians and Pakistanis.

 

[Cherokee]

Raymond Davis is not the only case . U.S. has a Huge history of such things as well .

Raymond Davis killed a man and went scott free thanks to U.S. pressure .

A U.S. diplomat ran from Kenya after killing a man as well

U.S. Diplomat Flees Kenya After Killing Man In Car Crash

An American diplomat who police say was speeding crossed the center line in his SUV and rammed into a full mini-bus, killing a father of three whose widow is six months pregnant, officials said Friday.

U.S. Embassy officials in Nairobi rushed the American and his family out of Kenya the next day, leaving the crash victims with no financial assistance to pay for a funeral and for hospital bills for the eight or so others who were seriously injured.

U.S. loves to apply pressure on other countries to save its citizens but when same is done in reverse it cries foul . Maybe they should let go of this elitist mentality first .

 

[Solomon2]

Raymond Davis is not the only case . U.S. has a Huge history of such things as well .

Raymond Davis killed a man and went scott free thanks to U.S. pressure .

A U.S. diplomat ran from Kenya after killing a man as well

U.S. Diplomat Flees Kenya After Killing Man In Car Crash

U.S. loves to apply pressure on other countries to save its citizens but when same is done in reverse it cries foul . Maybe they should let go of this elitist mentality first .

Note that the officer who caused the accident had full dip-immunity. The Kenyans handled this case the same way Americans do: the offending diplomat leaves the country the next day and neither the diplomat nor his sending country retain civil or criminal liability.

In this case, yet again, Americans acted according to their obligations under international law.

 

[Cherokee]

Raymond Davis is not the only case . U.S. has a Huge history of such things as well .

Raymond Davis killed a man and went scott free thanks to U.S. pressure .

A U.S. diplomat ran from Kenya after killing a man as well

U.S. Diplomat Flees Kenya After Killing Man In Car Crash



U.S. loves to apply pressure on other countries to save its citizens but when same is done in reverse it cries foul . Maybe they should let go of this elitist mentality first .

Note that the officer who caused the accident had full dip-immunity. The Kenyans handled this case the same way Americans do: the offending diplomat leaves the country the next day and neither the diplomat nor his sending country retain civil or criminal liability.

In this case, yet again, Americans acted according to their obligations under international law.

This whole thread is made on a premise that diplomats who commit crimes shouldn't get a free pass and when cases of american diplomats and wannabe diplomats ( davis) are shown law is quoted .

U.S. should make up it mind what it wants exactly .

 

[Solomon2]

Something else should be noted: whatever immunity Khobragade may have from the U.N., there's this:

SECTION 20. Privileges and immunities are granted to officials in the
interests o£ the United Nations and not for the personal benefit of the indi
viduals themselves. The Secretary-General shall have the right and the duty
to waive the immunity of any official in any case where, in his opinion, the
immunity would impede the course of justice and can be waived without
prejudice to the interests of the United Nations. In the case of the Secre
tary-General, the Security Counsil shall have the right to waive immunity.

SECTION 21. The United Nations shall co-operate at all times with the
appropriate authorities of Members to facilitate the proper administration
of justice, secure the observance of police regulations and prevent the occur
rence of any abuse in connection with the privileges, immunities and facili
ties mentioned in this Article.
​

The latest press briefing from the State Dept. is up: link. State confirms Khobragade's paperwork for immunity was received from the U.N. on Dec. 20th and is "under review" - a review that might take awhile, as the spokesperson added, "it’s important right now for there to be space for these private diplomatic conversations to continue" - entirely separate from the prosecution of Khobragade. State Dept. and India are "focused on how to move the relationship forward, how to get past this incident, and the work we have to do together going forward" while the Indians are negotiating with "the judicial folks" (in the Dept. of Justice) directly. State is no longer involved in the investigation process.

 

[Juice]

So can we get Raymond Davis and the men who ran over an innocent man while they were speeding to try to get to him back here to stand trial in Pakistan?

Come get him....just like we got OBL....c'mon....we're waiting....

 

[Solomon2]

This whole thread is made on a premise that diplomats who commit crimes shouldn't get a free pass and when cases of american diplomats and wannabe diplomats ( davis) are shown law is quoted.

Because Davis didn't get a free pass. The American dip in Kenya did, in accordance with international law. So do the miscreants with dip-immunity here in the U.S.

If there's one aspect of international law I'd like changed, it's this madness that diplomats aren't liable when they cause car accidents. They or their sending nation should be subject at least to civil suits, without prejudice to them being diplomats (meaning you can't fine somebody a hundred times what someone who isn't a diplomat is fined, simply because they are an American.)