Democrazy and Justice

[BATMAN]

Friendly opposition disclose power share secrets.

Any explanation of this from the supporters of democracy?

 

[mjnaushad]

Friendly opposition disclose power share secrets.

Any explanation of this from the supporters of democracy?

So if you are not member of PPP or MLN you aint going to get any jobs.....

Great. What kind of A$$holes we choose to rule us.

No shame on them.....SHAME ON US.

 

[qsaark]

Friendly opposition disclose power share secrets.

Any explanation of this from the supporters of democracy?

So what is wrong with it? Democracy is the name of give and take, not only in Pakistan but also in every civilized society where governments are run through democracy. In the elections, the people of Punjab have expressed confidence in both the parties. It’s an ideal situation that the two parties form a coalition government and solve the problems of their voters.

So what is the title again “Demorazy and Justice”; see you cant even spell the word Democracy correctly, that is why you are having trouble understanding coalition governments and power sharing.

 

[BATMAN]

My PC keys had problems so consider it typo... i intended to write Democrazy..

No democracy is not the name of give and take..
Democracy is a managment system which should work in the interest of share holders of state (people) and the state it self.

Unfortunately since iftikhar ch made CJ under the deal... politicians think that they have bought liscence of corruption and are setting records in corruption.
Benifiting only their relatives and party activists... who threaten and black mail honest and passive people.

 

[qsaark]

My PC keys had problems so consider it typo... i intended to write Democrazy..

Your PC key has no problem, your intention (Niyyat) has problem.

No democracy is not the name of give and take..
Democracy is a managment system which should work in the interest of share holders of state (people) and the state it self.

Give me an example of democracy you are talking about from any country?

Unfortunately since iftikhar ch made CJ under the deal... politicians think that they have bought liscence of corruption and are setting records in corruption.
Benifiting only their relatives and party activists... who threaten and black mail honest and passive people.

Show us the proof of the record corruption? If it is at this grand magnitude, than you should have no problem slapping the proof on my face.... Go head, I am waiting.

 

[sparklingway]

qsaark, my friend, this is a problem with intentions, ideology, reading adultered history, a patriarchal social structure and years of inculcated hatred for a democratic system. There is a large number of people, exceptionally large on this forum, who will label a politician's corruption as democracy's failure and the reason why they want despotic regimes to rule.

As soon as a civilian comes, he's labelled "corrupt" regardless of who he is and what he has done. Khakis on the other hand are labelled "Mard e Ahan", "Mard e Momin" or "Quadi e Azam Sani".

The politicians even in such a twisted, faulty and broken democratic system are anwerable to the people. They are forced to change decisions according to the will of the people. They do not impose "an emergency" on their own regime when they feel that their throne is threatened nor do they beat Fatima Jinnah in a rigged election.

The debate is not democracry vs dictatorship, it's about the elitist ideology that dominates the minds of the upper middle class. I'm sick and tired of them complaining that democracy is not suitable for Pakistan. It is based on an effort to maintain the class structure of Pakistani society and that their authoritarian regimes remain unchallenged. It stems from seeking economic self interest and the privileged class of people would rather complain and degrade a system of governance rather than strive to eliminate the differences in the distribution of wealth. They would complain rather than do some real social and political uplift to create a truly representative system of governance and endeavor.

Democracy is an evolutionary process. We have to make politicians accountable. We have to put in our effort in the governance system. The I'm-apolitical and I-hate-politics attitude of the upper-middle class is the thing I abhor the most.

 

[BATMAN]

Your PC key has no problem, your intention (Niyyat) has problem.

I have the opportunity to use my PC therefore you should trust me rather than faking god..
FYI...the word in question was my first word i typed yesterday and later i discovered... i had to press hard on some keys and i cannot edit the subject any more.

Mods. kindly add 'C' to the first word of subject reading 'deomcrazy'

Give me an example of democracy you are talking about from any country?

I challenged your described defination of democracy

Democracy is name of give and take

i'm not going to dig the globe to find you an example which suits to any definition. I just don't agree to the practice of give and take in job quota.
i do like to challenge prevailing democracy in Pakistan ... i.e. parliamentry system of governance.. e.g. in single constituency, we have 300k registered voters and have about 5 contesting candidates... after elections when votes are counted, we found winner secured 55k votes, runner up scored 35k and about 10k were shared by the remaining 3 candidates.... where as 200k did not vote!
but the leading vote taker start hiring his favorite persons on state jobs!
now you are describing such system of governance and management as democratic? and you hate those remaining 245k voters who do not agree to this form of ideology!!! lets calculate bit further.... let us assume we have 300 constituencies in whole state... and lets assume in over all result one party bags all 300 seats with more or less same stats. mentioned above!
this means out of 90million total voters 73million does not support the govt. resulting from 16.5million!!! but in reallity no party bangs 100% seats hence it is safe to assume that the govt. does not represent even the 16.5million projected in example.
this is GROSS injustice in it self. irrespective to other blames and debates.
Now if we look in detail to the process of registering voters, counting votes and various other factors which are employed to have one vote extra are open secret.

Show us the proof of the record corruption? If it is at this grand magnitude, than you should have no problem slapping the proof on my face.... Go head, I am waiting.

Please... ask this question to transparency international or visit Pakistan to know the truth.
Starting from airport you will notice the difference.

qsaark, my friend, this is a problem with intentions, ideology, reading adultered history, a patriarchal social structure and years of inculcated hatred for a democratic system. There is a large number of people, exceptionally large on this forum, who will label a politician's corruption as democracy's failure and the reason why they want despotic regimes to rule.

As soon as a civilian comes, he's labelled "corrupt" regardless of who he is and what he has done. Khakis on the other hand are labelled "Mard e Ahan", "Mard e Momin" or "Quadi e Azam Sani".

The politicians even in such a twisted, faulty and broken democratic system are anwerable to the people. They are forced to change decisions according to the will of the people. They do not impose "an emergency" on their own regime when they feel that their throne is threatened nor do they beat Fatima Jinnah in a rigged election.

The debate is not democracry vs dictatorship, it's about the elitist ideology that dominates the minds of the upper middle class. I'm sick and tired of them complaining that democracy is not suitable for Pakistan. It is based on an effort to maintain the class structure of Pakistani society and that their authoritarian regimes remain unchallenged. It stems from seeking economic self interest and the privileged class of people would rather complain and degrade a system of governance rather than strive to eliminate the differences in the distribution of wealth. They would complain rather than do some real social and political uplift to create a truly representative system of governance and endeavor.

Democracy is an evolutionary process. We have to make politicians accountable. We have to put in our effort in the governance system. The I'm-apolitical and I-hate-politics attitude of the upper-middle class is the thing I abhor the most.

Before i disregard your un warranted arguments... i ask... is it your explanation to the news or reply to any of my comments?

What you don't know is democracy in raw terms means rule of majority and i do not accept Pakistani democracy because some how our govt. represent minority population.... thanks to corruption....horse trading and vadalism in shape of protests.

 

[BATMAN]

Another example of give and take type of democracy:

Pakistan International School in Damascus Run By Family of Ambassador

The new Pakistani ambassador to Syria, appointed by President Zardari, has summarily sacked the entire staff and faculty of the Pakistan International School in Damascus and appointed almost all his immediate family members for a collective monthly salary of $38,000 (Rs3.2 million).

 

[sparklingway]

Another example of give and take type of democracy:

Pakistan International School in Damascus Run By Family of Ambassador

The new Pakistani ambassador to Syria, appointed by President Zardari, has summarily sacked the entire staff and faculty of the Pakistan International School in Damascus and appointed almost all his immediate family members for a collective monthly salary of $38,000 (Rs3.2 million).

I guess nothing ever turned uyp in autocratic rules. Stories of corruption are always heart wrenching and should be condemned.

Stop condoning military rule.

Reply logically to my arguments. I accept that our system of democracy is full of problems and is faulty but it will require time to evolve and become better. Despots can't do anything better than leave the country in tatters.

 

[BATMAN]

^^True... we are evolving and evolving fast but in opposite direction.
Why is it that a president from military background revolutionise every sector over night and reforms can be felt next morning!

I was not sure to what are you addressing.. it seems like more of general lecture rather than argument...
but do you really have the courage to disagree to any of my above post than please... point out the false statements.

BTW..in below linked doc. some stats for your reference:
Please have alook at the pages 34, 36, 37 and 40. this is the real pulse.

http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/csr.pdf

 

[SSGPA1]

Problem is that the pro Zaradri and pro NS crowd doesn't belive that their leaders have done any corruption therefore they will never understand the damage of such political distribution of job quotas.

Take a look at PIA, from MQM to PPPP and to PML-N everyone ensured that they can get their supporters another opp to earn haram. If soemoen needs a job in PIA, find a MNA who can forward your resume in return of a fee. Now there is no need for more employees in PIA but we will continue to see additions.

Same with quotas in Punjab, mid level and low level workers of PPP and PML-N will sale these jobs in Punjab. This is how these parties support their thugs, not the supporters, but the thugs. These thugs in turn make sure that they come out on streets for anything to support their masters. These thugs also manage the political and election campaigns.

Poor supporters only pay for these jobs or give up a job to someone with resources.

This is how most of our institutions become unprofitable because they are used to support certain political parties.

Batman, hats off to you for raising this issue because these are the real issues which no politician will take on.

 

[qsaark]

Problem is that the pro Zaradri and pro NS crowd doesn't belive that their leaders have done any corruption therefore they will never understand the damage of such political distribution of job quotas.

Just like the pro-dictatorship crowd does not believe their beloved dictators have done anything wrong; The politicians are corrupt but as much corrupt are the civil and military bureaucrat. Indeed, the politicians have done corruption, but they not dug up the roots of this country, this fantastic job is done by the successive dictators.

Take a look at PIA, from MQM to PPPP and to PML-N everyone ensured that they can get their supporters another opp to earn haram. If soemoen needs a job in PIA, find a MNA who can forward your resume in return of a fee. Now there is no need for more employees in PIA but we will continue to see additions.

During the military regime, this job was done by the deputed Army officers.

Same with quotas in Punjab, mid level and low level workers of PPP and PML-N will sale these jobs in Punjab. This is how these parties support their thugs, not the supporters, but the thugs. These thugs in turn make sure that they come out on streets for anything to support their masters. These thugs also manage the political and election campaigns.

Indeed, and similarly the Generals have supported their thugs; The kids of the former Generals openly accepted that their Dads made tons of money during the unholy Afghan war (Humayun Akhtar’s interviews are on record).

This is how most of our institutions become unprofitable because they are used to support certain political parties.

Nothing different happened during the successive military regimes.

Batman, hats off to you for raising this issue because these are the real issues which no politician will take on.

As if this issue was never raised before by no one else; My hats off to your utter ignorance.

 

[sab]

My two paise-

 

[sparklingway]

My two paise-

You have done great justice to this debate. I salue you !

 

[BATMAN]

You have done great justice to this debate. I salue you !

No this is not the debate!!!

intially debate was about the defination of democracy... now since you have brought in the dictator.. i kindly ask you to give us your definations of both!