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Deal to buy 36 Rafale jets runs into trouble; India & France struggle to agree on sales terms: Sourc

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Zarvan

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NEW DELHI: India's order of 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets has run into trouble with government officials struggling to agree sales terms, sources said, four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened to break a logjam in previous commercial negotiations.

Two senior Indian defence officials told Reuters that both sides were wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that planemaker Dassault Aviation invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-bil dollar contract in India.

The problems threaten to further delay the modernisation of India's ageing air force.

Military officials have warned of a major capability gap opening up with rivals China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

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Modi and French President Francois Hollande announced the government-to-government deal for the sale of the off-the-shelf Rafale fighters on April 10.

That followed three years of commercial negotiations with Dassault for 126 aircraft that stalled due to disagreements over assembling most of the aircraft in India.

Citing India's urgent defence needs, Modi chose to deal directly with Paris for a smaller order, saying officials would work out the details.

On May 16, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told local media that negotiations over pricing would be finished in a "month or two".
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But those talks were bogged down over India's insistence on a lower price for the frontline warplanes than the roughly $200 million each that was discussed with Dassault during the commercial talks, said the two defence officials, who have been briefed on the new negotiations.

Under the previous proposal, Dassault was to assemble 108 of the aircraft in India, a move New Delhi hoped would help boost a high-tech local aerospace industry. There is no production in India in the new arrangement.

"Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks cannot stand," said one of the officials, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The Indian Defence Ministry said negotiators were in talks to produce a draft agreement, but declined to give details. Parrikar said last week that New Delhi had told Paris in April it wanted the jets as soon as possible.

A Dassault spokesman declined to comment, as did the French defence procurement agency.


DEBATE OVER OFFSETS

The two Indian officials said another sticking point was New Delhi's standard requirement that arms makers invest a percentage of the value of any deal above $50 million in India.

Such so-called offset policies are not unusual in the developing world, where Western defence firms have invested in local technology and jobs in return for sales.

In this instance, India wants Dassault to invest at least 30 percent of the contract value in India through activities such as the sourcing of components for future French operations, the setting up of manufacturing facilities in India or by providing high-tech job training, the officials said.

France has said it was ready to meet the offset obligations, but that it would take time to set up a vendor base in India for components for example and that this could push up the deal's cost, the first defence official said.

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"Unless this is waived at the highest levels, the Defence Ministry is proceeding on the basis that offset requirements have to be met," the official said.

During the commercial negotiations, India had set the offset bar at 50 percent of the contract, the official added.

"This issue has become bigger than the procurement," said Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor on arms purchases to the Indian Defence Ministry, who has been tracking the negotiations.

DIFFERENT PRIORITIES

Complicating matters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) had asked for technical modifications so the latest weapons could be fitted to the jets, the second defence official said.

Initial technical specifications, which were part of the commercial negotiations, were outlined a decade ago when India began the process of seeking new fighters.

A French source familiar with the matter said differing priorities within India were delaying matters, with the air force focused on weaponry and the Defence Ministry on offsets.

"All along the IAF has asked for more armaments than what Dassault has offered while the Indian administration has demanded offsets," the source said.

The air force declined to comment, saying the deal was in the government's hands.

The Rafale fighters are meant to fill a gap in an air force deployed for a two-front war against China and Pakistan.

A domestic programme to build a light combat aircraft to form the backbone of the air force is 19 years behind schedule, with the first plane due for final operational clearance in March 2016.

Meanwhile, nearly 260 MiG 21 and MiG 27 Cold War-era fighter jets are due to be phased out in about eight years.


Read more at:
Deal to buy 36 Rafale jets runs into trouble; India & France struggle to agree on sales terms: Sources - The Economic Times














@nair @GURU DUTT @Horus @Oscar @Jango @Jungibaaz @Arsalan @Areesh @A.Rafay @SpArK @third eye @HariPrasad
 
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我的天啊。。。:undecided:

"Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks cannot stand," said one of the officials, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

No technology transfer at all?

The problem (it seems), it that this deal is "urgent" for India, but not urgent for France. So it makes sense that they would want to squeeze as much as possible.

And if they are squeezing this much in "peace time", imagine how much they will squeeze in "war time"?

That's why indigenous weapons platforms are SO important, during war time you can produce as many as your production capability allows.
 
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F the French... Go for EF then
why EF if getting TOT to speed up owr AMCA programme then why not buy yamrican F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornets as we have engine comminality + no matter how good frenchies radar or spectra suite are they cant beat the AESA based radar/EWsuite & other elertoniks and wepons pakage of F/A-18 E/F and is yamricans want they can deliver us 3 fullsquads of them in a single year
 
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Dassault should be penalized now instead of having further talks with them
 
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我的天啊。。。:undecided:



No technology transfer at all?

The problem (it seems), it that this deal is "urgent" for India, but not urgent for France. So it makes sense that they would want to squeeze as much as possible.

And if they are squeezing this much in "peace time", imagine how much they will charge in "war time"? That's why indigenous weapons platforms are so important, you can produce as many as your production capability allows.

no tot for only this deal.. its only 36 fighter. IAF started another MMRCA deal for rest 90 with tot.

that's why now we're going for 65 pak-fa off the shelf from russia at the same time fgfa's dev work goes on.

why EF if getting TOT to speed up owr AMCA programme then why not buy yamrican F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornets as we have engine comminality + no matter how good frenchies radar or spectra suite are they cant beat the AESA based radar/EWsuite & other elertoniks and wepons pakage of F/A-18 E/F and is yamricans want they can deliver us 3 fullsquads of them in a single year

They're not showing any interest in super hornet, maybe because of the strings attached or ToT.
 
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我的天啊。。。:undecided:



No technology transfer at all?

The problem (it seems), it that this deal is "urgent" for India, but not urgent for France. So it makes sense that they would want to squeeze as much as possible.

And if they are squeezing this much in "peace time", imagine how much they will squeeze in "war time"?

That's why indigenous weapons platforms are SO important, during war time you can produce as many as your production capability allows.

Actually PAF slowdown has made IAF complacent

There is NO threat of More F 16 s ; No J 10
So India's Ministry of Defence is dragging these deals

When in 1982 PAF got F 16 s ; immediately IAF got Mirage 2000

There is No sense of urgency left ; Su 30 MKI is good enough for all the present threats
 
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No Both EF & Rafale are useless at this point. Just cancel this whole thing. Waste of time, just order 70 more Super MKI, keep the MKI line open till 2021, taking the total order book to 340 (40 of which can be for the SFC, remaining 300 for 15 squadrons).

In the mean time just order 60 direct purchase Russian built PAKFA to be delivered starting 2019-2020. After the final Super MKI are delivered in 2021, rejig/ re-tool the MKI line by 2023 to begin production of made in India PAKFA-MKI with over 140 to be made locally. This way we'll have better numbers available at 2020 i.e about 50-60 more Super MKI. If we go the Rafale route i.e. if deal is signed end of this or early next year will only result in deliveries starting 2018 with only a squadron of 20 being delivered by 2020. that's a 40 aircraft difference. Also if Russian built PAKFA ordered right away as being expected, we could easily have 1 squadron delivered by 2020. Adding a total of 70-80 cutting edge aircraft additionally by 2020. Super MKI will in almost all arenas be a better aircraft than both EF/Rafale. It will have better engines, new avionics, including a massive AESA, new OLS, new levels of sensor fusion.
 
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no tot for only this deal.. its only 36 fighter. IAF started another MMRCA deal for rest 90 with tot.

that's why now we're going for 65 pak-fa off the shelf from russia at the same time fgfa's dev work goes on.



They're not showing any interest in super hornet, maybe because of the strings attached or ToT.
strings are attached in P8I also but we still buy them dont we :azn:

its not about hornet or rafale its about buisness etheiks abd bieng honest on the terms of the deal
 
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In the Next few Months we can see a FINAL decision
whether we are getting Rafale or Not

Then PAK FA and More Su 30 MKI will be only options left

We need More AWACS they are more useful for directing the Fighters

Similarly More Brahmos regiments for attacking ground targets will also be helpful
 
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Negotiate with the EF consortium. Get it up and moving. Order the complete 126, with 36 delivered and the rest in India. Dassault does not agree, get somebody else. But, this nonsense of only Rafale needs to be put to an end.

LCA, Typhoon, Su-30 MKI + 3 sqaudrons of PakFa by 2020. And the EF chaps have offered lead development of a naval variant. Lets get on with it.
 
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what limitation in it??
there are"some" strings attached in every US wepons that comes owt of US of A but yamricans onli pin prikk u in there usage when you try to use them for things which in some way go against US interests but today USA needs india much much more than we need them .... rest keep speculating :coffee:
 
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And if they are squeezing this much in "peace time", imagine how much they will squeeze in "war time"?

A lot. During Kargil war which took place in 1999 a pair of thermal socks would cost into many thousands of rupees because of panic buying.

No technology transfer at all?

Technology transfer is a regressive concept which should be abolished after a time frame.

A country which does not have the resources or the know-how seeks transfer of technology to study and understand how a certain model is build and operated. For every subsequent purchase if there is a demand for technology transfer then it shows India is woefully backward in defence industry.

Dassault should be penalized now instead of having further talks with them

Who is going to penalize them, for what and in which court?
 
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Hats off to French...They sure know their defence deals!
 
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