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DCNS Closed Cycle Steam Turbine MESMA AIP vs DRDO Fuel Cell AIP System For IN's Kalvari-class SSK's

Chanakya's_Chant

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Air-independent propulsion (AIP) is any marine propulsion technology that allows a non-nuclear submarine to operate without access to atmospheric oxygen (by surfacing or using a snorkel). AIP can augment or replace the diesel-electric propulsion system of non-nuclear vessels.

Here is a comparison of DCNS's Closed Cycle Steam Turbine MESMA AIP vs DRDO's Fuel Cell AIP System For IN's Kalvari-class SSK's -

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econd+Khalid-class+(Agosta+90B)+submarine+of+the+Pakistan+Navy+is+to+be+retrofitted+with+a+MESMA.jpg

DCNS MESMA AIP

The MESMA AIP from DCNS mimcs nuclear propulsion. It uses heat generated through combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres to power a conventional steam turbine power plant. It doesn't use fuel cells.

AIP%2BModule-1.jpg

AIP%2BModule-2.jpg

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DRDO-AIP-Fuel-Cell-diagram.jpg
The DRDO AIP uses fuel cell technology. A fuel cell converts chemical energy from a fuel into electricity through a chemical reaction of positively charged hydrogen ions with oxygen or another oxidizing agent.

There are many fuel cell types, but the principal ones include the alkaline fuel cell (AFC), proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell, direct methanol fuel cell (DMFC), molten carbonate fuel cell (MCFC), phosphoric acid fuel cell (PAFC), and solid oxide fuel cell (SOFC).

DRDO's AIP uses PAFC, which has some advantages over other fuel cell types. PAFCs offer a broader choice of fuel being more tolerant of fuel impurities. It can operate using reformed hydrocarbon fuels (Methanol) or biogas.

PAFC operating temperatures (150 to 200 °C) are higher and as a result they generate steam as byproduct, besides electric power for propulsion. The steam can be used to meet other heating requirements, pushing up operating efficiency to as high as 70%.

PAFC fuel cells were one of the earliest to be developed and are commercially available of the shelf (COTS).

The only downside of PAFCs is the use of phosphoric acid as electrolyte. However, use of modern materials makes PAFC safe enough for commercial use at hospitals, schools, office buildings, and grocery stores.

It's likely that the DRDO plug uses commercially available PAFCs.

The second generation fuel-cell AIP developed by DCNS usees hydrogen produced from diesel fuel by hydrocarbon reforming.

One obvious advantage of the DCNS AIP is the easy availability of diesel at any port around the globe. The absence of pure-oxygen in the cells allows longer life cycle. DCNS claims that the life cycle of its new AIP plug roughly matches the life-cycle of the submarine, which isn't the case with other fuel cell types.

For DCNS MESMA the hazards (like DRDO Fuel cells) of storing and handling the liquid oxygen (LOX). While the MESMA may provide higher power output, its net efficiency might be the lowest (estimated at. 25%) as its rate of oxygen consumption is higher. The MESMA has significant moving parts, which may radiate detectable noise. Ultimately, the maintenance and crew training requirements of the MESMA steam turbine system are significant - adding to cost. The burning process yields exhaust carbon dioxide which needs to be expelled behind the sub at any depth perhaps making it vulnerable to advanced airborne and ASW ship sniffing sensors.

Though relatively high output power is available and the design permits relatively easy retrofitting into existing submarines by adding an extra hull section-plug. There is no doubting the sophistication of the DCNS 2nd generation AIP, which has to be weighed against the higher initial cost, high recurring cost from the need to use AIP is all future conventional subs, and the continued dependence on foreign technology.

Additional Note(s):-

>> Two of PN's Agosta 90B Submarines are fitted with DCNS MESMA AIP.

>> PLAN's Type 041 (Yuan class) submarines and Type 032 (Qing class) submarines are fitted with Sweden's Saab Stirling AIP.

>> DRDO Fuel Cell AIP has an endurance of 25 days against 28 days of DCNS MESMA AIP System.

>> Last two of the Kalvari-class SSK's are to be fitted with DRDO Fuel Cell AIP.

>> DCNS initially offered its first generation MESMA AIP with the Scorpene, but the Indian Navy opted to go with a second generation DRDO developed 300-t AIP based on fuel cell technology. DCNS has since developed and demonstrated to Indian journalists a fully tested second generation operational-scale fuel cell AIP that would allow the Scorpene to stay submerged for 3 weeks, but the Indian Navy hasn't been swayed from its decision to go with the DRDO AIP. (Without AIP, Scorpene can stay submerged for 4 days. With a MESMA AIP, it would be able to stay submerged for 2 weeks.)

>> DRDO has demonstrated its AIP technology on a land based prototype. Trials on a land based submarine section were to commence from March 2015 and full scale operations of a AIP System was to be demonstrated within 2015.

>> One good reason why the Navy has stuck with the DRDO AIP is because it could later be reconfigured for the submarines to be acquired under Project 75I. Also, the four Scorpenes launched earlier could be retrofitted under an upgrade program.
 
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DRDOs feul cell AIP looks good on paper but its no where near the oprational status and indian naval fleet is bearing the burnt of this delay so who is responslible for the mess and will they be ver tried in court of law for this :coffee:
 
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DRDOs feul cell AIP looks good on paper but its no where near the oprational status and indian naval fleet is bearing the burnt of this delay so who is responslible for the mess and will they be ver tried in court of law for this :coffee:

The problem is Indian Navy has already rejected DCNS's MESMA AIP's and has decided to go with DRDO Fuel Cells - one good reason why the Navy has stuck with the DRDO AIP is because it could later be reconfigured for the submarines to be acquired under Project 75I. Also, the four Scorpenes launched earlier could be retrofitted under an upgrade program. The last two will come with DRDO AIP.

The Navy's penchant for sourcing its systems from within India is well appreciated in the country, but there can be no denying the risk that the Navy is taking by adding to its fleet, in this day and age, new submarines without AIP! India's adversaries, China and Pakistan, have been operating AIP subs for years now!
 
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The problem is Indian Navy has already rejected DCNS's MESMA AIP's and has decided to go with DRDO Fuel Cells - one good reason why the Navy has stuck with the DRDO AIP is because it could later be reconfigured for the submarines to be acquired under Project 75I. Also, the four Scorpenes launched earlier could be retrofitted under an upgrade program. The last two will come with DRDO AIP.

The Navy's penchant for sourcing its systems from within India is well appreciated in the country, but there can be no denying the risk that the Navy is taking by adding to its fleet, in this day and age, new submarines without AIP! India's adversaries, China and Pakistan, have been operating AIP subs for years now!
here i guess then its indian navies fault what stopped them for going for french AIP in a couple of boats and then comparing the both techs its like ..... chube ji chabbe banne aye the per doobe ban ke reh gaye :haha:
 
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Hello Chanakya's_Chant ! Strangely enough, I got an alert signaling a tag from you for this thread
but once here, no tag! I suppose you changed your mind and took it down.

Being here already, I'll still offer a view; might as well, huh? ;)

Closed cycle vs fuel cells AIP can be summarily opposed by two factors.
The closed cycle is less energetically efficient but with a higher output and more detectable but easier of use.
The fuel cell based on volatile gas is more ecological but a lot more dangerous, as in a lot.

As such, ecology not being a concern versus safety onboard a submarine, I'd go for MESMA.
The numerous fires on Indian ships ( Jalashwa, Sindhurakshak, Konkan, Sindhuratna, Kolkata, Ganga )
although different in nature point to a level of preparedness for such dangers not quite acceptable.

That however is a surface ( pun intended ) analysis. In more detail, one should consider things like
technological maturity : as in your article, land-based fuel cells are an acceptable risk with help being
available at all times. But you cannot send fire trucks and ambulances to a diving sub 300km off coast.
The question becomes one of experience. I am not qualified to judge how Indian engineers work but
in order to risk those sailors lives, I'd personally ask for tight requirements on the risk percentage.

It's a simple matter of weighing the % of chances of incident. If at present as pointed Guru Dutt the
doubts are too high, I'd opt for the safest route. That neither means that India is no good nor that it
can't succeed. The systems used have to pass the test for a long while in relaxed land conditions
before it becomes acceptable to use them in the risk prone closed environment of a submarine, some-
times for years.
Inducting an unproven technology is always risky. Defining acceptable levels for that risk is paramount.

That's about it! There's a bit of logic in procuring a sub with its OEM systems just as it makes sense to
add indigenous ones if available. The true question if neither emerges as having a requirement advantage
of magnitude should be safety. Walk before you run and all that sort of things!

Have a great day, Tay.
 
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The problem is Indian Navy has already rejected DCNS's MESMA AIP's and has decided to go with DRDO Fuel Cells - one good reason why the Navy has stuck with the DRDO AIP is because it could later be reconfigured for the submarines to be acquired under Project 75I. Also, the four Scorpenes launched earlier could be retrofitted under an upgrade program. The last two will come with DRDO AIP.

The Navy's penchant for sourcing its systems from within India is well appreciated in the country, but there can be no denying the risk that the Navy is taking by adding to its fleet, in this day and age, new submarines without AIP! India's adversaries, China and Pakistan, have been operating AIP subs for years now!


Hmm; AIP is no magic wand... it adds to the sub's endurance; that is it. Also remember that the endurance add-on in a lurking mode.SSBNs and SSNs are the only real game-changer.
 
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DRDOs feul cell AIP looks good on paper but its no where near the oprational status and indian naval fleet is bearing the burnt of this delay so who is responslible for the mess and will they be ver tried in court of law for this :coffee:

We might face some delays with the domestic system but at the end of the day we should chose the Indian system
 
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Hello Chanakya's_Chant ! Strangely enough, I got an alert signaling a tag from you for this thread
but once here, no tag! I suppose you changed your mind and took it down.

Being here already, I'll still offer a view; might as well, huh? ;)

Actually I am in the habit of deleting all tags in a few minutes after tagging - looks clean and sends alert to those whom I actually tagged - at the same time avoids offending many whom I forget to tag in my threads! :D

Hmm; AIP is no magic wand... it adds to the sub's endurance; that is it. Also remember that the endurance add-on in a lurking mode.SSBNs and SSNs are the only real game-changer.

To what extent do AIP systems effect the speed of SSK's?
 
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To what extent do AIP systems effect the speed of SSK's?

Tactically AIPs do not, necessarily, increase range. They increase
a. Survivability
b. Endurance (stay time under water)

You would typically deploy SSK with AIP much before the declaration of war or divert a sub on patrol to area of interest. The Sub, then uses its AIP to remain submerged. The flip side, is they give up speed.

Correct me, if I am wrong @Capt.Popeye
 
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Tactically AIPs do not, necessarily, increase range. They increase
a. Survivability
b. Endurance (stay time under water)

You would typically deploy SSK with AIP much before the declaration of war or divert a sub on patrol to area of interest. The Sub, then uses its AIP to remain submerged. The flip side, is they give up speed.

Correct me, if I am wrong @Capt.Popeye


That pretty much sums it up, though (b) is much more of a factor than (a). In the Indian Context; one has to consider the Subs that one is more likely to encounter. Only one side has SSN/SSBNs , However their deployment in the IOR is not so simple as is made out to be. Plus there other factors too.
On the other side, there are only a few SSKs, albeit AIP equipped. But note that they are essentially Coastal Subs not designed to run deep. With Airborne LRMR/ASW capability the equation changes again. Then there is another "Gorilla in the Room": Sub-Surface and Space-Segment Sensors; which do not get talked about too much. The game keeps changing.
 
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Actually I am in the habit of deleting all tags in a few minutes after tagging - looks clean and sends alert to those whom I actually tagged - at the same time avoids offending many whom I forget to tag in my threads! :D

Got that now! Interesting choice of tagging technique, ;) I'll remember it hence.

Good day all, Tay.
 
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Parrikar calls for defence exports worth $1 billion

In New Delhi on Wednesday, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar startled the defence industry by targeting the export of $1 billion (Rs 6,600 crore) worth of DRDO-developed indigenous defence equipment in two-to-three years.

This represents a ten-fold increase over current export levels. On November 28, 2014, the government revealed in parliament that defence exports were: Rs 512 crore in 2011-12; Rs 447 crore in 2012-13, and Rs 686 crore in 2013-14.

In 2014-15, exports are likely to be only marginally higher. On July 24, Minister of State for Defence, Rao Inderjit Singh, told parliament that exports during the year had included Cheetal helicopters and Stallion trucks to Afghanistan; a Dhruv helicopter and bullet proof jackets to Nepal; Dhruv helicopter spares to Ecuador; Sukhoi-30 avionics and MiG fighter and helicopter spares to Malaysia; hull mounted sonars to Myanmar, and other odds and ends.

The defence minister has often talked up the need for higher exports. He has told parliament that a "Defence Export Strategy has been formulated and put in public domain. The Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for issuing NOC (no objection certificates) for export of military stores has been simplified and made online."

At last year's DRDO awards function, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had called for empowering younger scientists, an implied criticism that led on in January to the removal from service of Dr Avinash Chander, the DRDO's chief who had already received two service extensions.

This year, Parrikar fired a warning to the DRDO's "cluster heads", the seven director generals who direct R&D in the organisation's seven technology verticals.

He said the cluster heads should "avoid duplication, or overlapping of activities by laboratories for greater economic efficiency".

Parrikar went on: "Cluster in-charge has a very important role to play. They should not think, 'This is my last two years, why should we speed up development'".

Speaking before Parrikar, the DRDO chief, Dr S Christopher had asked the defence ministry to quickly approve the hiring of 436 more scientists, which the DRDO had requested. Noting that DRDO's strength had remained stagnant since 2001, he said, "A top-heavy organisation with a narrow base is not appropriate."

Christopher pointed out that the annual DRDO budget of five to six per cent of the defence allocation was inadequate for developing new equipment for the forces, when China was spending 20 per cent of its budget on R&D. He said that India's military had so far ordered Rs 1,79,071 crore worth of equipment developed by the DRDO.

In a shot across the bows of the air force and the army, Parrikar pointed to the navy's success in establishing a "close interface" with the DRDO. He called for a similar level of interface between the DRDO and the army and air force.

Christopher made an intriguing revelation while listing out the DRDO's achievements during the year, mentioning the development of "air independent propulsion" (AIP) for submarines, which he revealed would soon be tested.

AIP is a state-of-the-art propulsion system that makes submarines quieter, and gives them longer endurance since they need not surface for as long as two weeks. In contrast, conventional diesel-electric submarines must surface far more often, since they require air to run their engines. When surfaced, they are vulnerable to detection.

The defence ministry is currently processing the acquisition of six AIP-equipped submarines under Project 75I. With the DRDO claiming to have developed AIP, it might well lobby for Project 75I vessels to have indigenous AIP.


Amongst the awards presented to DRDO laboratories and personnel was one for the successful design of the K-4 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), with a range of 3,500 kilometres. This SLBM, which is being developed for India's underwater nuclear deterrent, will replace the K-15 missiles that currently equips Arihant-class nuclear submarines. The K-15's range is just 750 kilometres.

The longer range K-4 missile would add greatly to the survivability of Arihant-class submarines, which could fire them from longer ranges without needing to venture too close to enemy shores.

Source:- Parrikar calls for defence exports worth $1 billion | Business Standard News
 
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