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This is not a signal of any kind. Just selling a 2 billion$ product and you think it signals something. I think the french deals with Brazil and India will signal lot more than this.

We already gave France a lot to cheer about, my deep feeling is that MMRCA contract is not going to France.
Recent Indradhanus exercise speaks a lot about IAF's intention about the probable candidate. :azn:
 
by Mani2020
The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack
The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion—a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs—while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek
if bolded part is true, India has lot chance of negotiations! if we award them MMRCA then we can force them for complete TOT and latest version of rafale not down graded planes they sell usually. :coffee:

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

 
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if bolded part is true, India has lot chance of negotiations! if we award them MMRCA then we can force them for complete TOT and latest version of rafale not down graded planes they sell usually.
I have raised this point earlier also and had a very heated discussion with Sancho...All the contendors are placing their best fighter and their latest version in MMRCA there is no question of downgraded version, some even has to add some extra features to their latest version inorder to meet india's demand and to lure us.
By the way their are reports of reduction in price of european fighters because of euro.
 
rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive.

since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india.

-xx-x-x-x-x

rafale is a big no - it wont offer much -diplomatically , its too expensive and also future development doesnt look too shiney.
 
actually we shouldnt have this many options..... it is lot confusing....
 
rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive.
Rafale is one of the best fighter in the race and it is also the most expensive one.

since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india.
We are not becoming partner. We are just the customer who will pay for the fighter. Since the French are alone we will get good ToT.

Being the only customer is risky...
 
Yeah you are right about the increased cost. But 3D TVC of EF is included in the proposal, we don't have to pay extra for that.

No it's not included, because it was developed by the consortium companies only, but no partner country paid for the development, or integration so far. The companies had proposed it for the T3 upgrade, not as a tech to improve maneuverability, because they know EF already is very capable in that regard and the partners would pay extra for it. Their argument was that the fuel consumption could be reduced by 2, or 3%, so could reduce the overall costs, but still no partner shows interest in it, because they know on the other hand it costs more in maintenance again.
Even if we go for EF, I doubt that we will pay extra for TVC, because the costs of EF would be very high anyway and it would have been worth it only if we took that engine + TVC for LCA (which would have been a great choice).


only UAE said that...?

Yes only UAE said that, because the Rafale F3+ including AESA radar was technically evaluated only in the UAE, Swiss, Brazil and India. The earlier competitions like Singapore that you mentioned, were about Rafale F2 with RBE 2 PESA radar!
There are no reports from India, Brazil, or Swiss that talks about issues with the RBE 2 AESA radar (unlike the Gripen radar), although even I think that it offers not the comparable range as the US, or the EF fighter, simply because the small nose of the Rafale is a limiting factor here.
However, it obviously fulfills the requirements and here is a more reliable and up to date source about it:

AESA Radar

While the first 100 or so Rafales were fitted with the early Thales RBE2 radar, the most important sensor of the next generation Rafale will be the new Thales RBE2 AA active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which will replace the passive array of the RBE2.

Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising 1,000 gallium-arsenide Transmit/Receive modules, in 2006. In late April this year, the company said the RBE2 AA had successfully completed a new series of tests on Rafale, carried out jointly with the French DGA defense procurement agency, at the Cazaux flight-test center.

"This milestone marks the latest step toward qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010," Thales stated. "The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012."

In operational terms, the RBE2 AA radar can track many targets in the radar field of view irrespective of the relative location between targets and/or the host aircraft. In addition, the radar provides a significant increase in detection range on enemy aircraft and a significant increase in reliability with respect to previous-generation radars.

Since the AESA radar antenna comprises a very large number of active modules, the failure of some of these modules has no noticeable effect on the overall performance and reliability of the system. Consequently, the active front end only requires maintenance every 10 years or more, thereby contributing to increased aircraft availability and reducing replacement part costs.

The RBE2 is a track while scan, monopulse-doppler X-band multimode fire-control radar system built around a modular concept. Air-to-air tracking and air-to-ground mapping functions can be interleaved due to the radar’s agile beam sweeping capabilities.

Fitted in the aircraft’s pointed nose, the RBE2 provides +/- 60 degree azimuth and elevation coverage and includes the SB-25A MkXII compatible IFF interrogator/transponder with Mode S capability. The IFF system uses phased array antennas just like the Spectra active electronic countermeasures (ECM) antennas.

The present radar air-to-air modes include long-range search; multi target track and engagement; air combat modes; Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR); and look down/shoot down functions. In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles. The radar can track and prioritize up to 40 targets simultaneously and engage up to eight with Mica, and soon Meteor, air-to-air missiles.

The RBE2 air-to-ground modes include: Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) mapping; SAR mapping; Fixed Target Track (FTT); Sea Surface Search and Track While Scan; Ground Moving Target Identification and Track (GMTI/T); target acquisition and air-to-ground ranging. Terrain following and avoidance modes can be combined to generate 3-D radar maps, thus enabling full automatic terrain following flights using the radar only...

Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall


- in production now, operational in Rafale from 2012 onwards
- can detect 40 targets at the same time and engage 8 of them
- A2A detection range for a target of 3m2 up to 138Km, tracking at 111Km


For comparision, here the official specs of the first Zhuk AE that was presented on Aero India 2007:

- operational from 2013 at the earliest
- can detect 30 targets at the same time and engage 6 of them
- A2A detection range for a target of 3m2 up to 130Km

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

The Russians later developed a bigger version that is said to have a detection range up to 200Km, but it was way too heavy, so it had to be changed again. The latest flying version should be less heavy, but it's unclear what performance it really has and which version was fielded in the trials.

So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.
 
So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.
Which is just another point against it when compared to the Super Hornet and the Typhoon. It could be one of the factors that causes it to loose the competition.
 
rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive.

since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india.

-xx-x-x-x-x

rafale is a big no - it wont offer much -diplomatically , its too expensive and also future development doesnt look too shiney.

:P you forget Mirrage 2000. We already have Dessault aircraft. Rafale is hugely based on it (its main reason of failure in export). Maintaince is not a problem here.

EF 2000 is best and will WIN the competition.:bunny:
 
mirage maintenance is so bloody expensive that india instead decided to go for new planes.

Dessault people are worst than russian when it comes to development and maintainance of their planes.
 
Eurofighter_1 Typhoon completes 100,000 flying hours .

230474609.jpg
 
mirage maintenance is so bloody expensive that india instead decided to go for new planes.

Dessault people are worst than russian when it comes to development and maintainance of their planes.

Maintenance of mirage is actually cheaper than Mig29s of IAF
what is expensive is the upg of Mirage 2000
I am sure u guys know that a mirage will cost 42 Million USD to upg compared to that a Mig29smt upg cost 15 Million USD and also include an engine transplant which Mirage upg doesnot

Many people within the Air HQ believe that it would be better to buy 28 more mmrca than upgrade 52 Mirage 2000 as it will cost the same and they can retire mirage 2000 by 2020 rather than keeping them till 2030 which was previously expected
While additional MMRCA will serve till 2050 and would be a far greater Ground attack platform than Mirage 2000H
 
Italy takes delivery of five Eurofighters on single day

HALLBERGMOOS, GERMANY (BNS): Alenia Aeronautica, a partner company of Eurofighter GmbH, has recently delivered five Eurofighter Typhoons to Italy.

The aircraft, designated IS037, IS039, IS040, IS041, IT011, were handed over to the Italian Air Force on a single day on December 28, 2010.

With this, the total number of Eurofighter deliveries in 2010 went up to 51 – far higher than had been predicted, Eurofighter said.

HALLBERGMOOS, GERMANY (BNS): Alenia Aeronautica, a partner company of Eurofighter GmbH, has recently delivered five Eurofighter Typhoons to Italy.

The aircraft, designated IS037, IS039, IS040, IS041, IT011, were handed over to the Italian Air Force on a single day on December 28, 2010.

With this, the total number of Eurofighter deliveries in 2010 went up to 51 – far higher than had been predicted, Eurofighter said.

The company, on December 22, 2010, had also delivered another Eurofighter to Italy which was the 250th such fighter delivered to the four core customer nations of the programme – Germany, Italy, Spain and UK – since 2003 when the first Eurofighter was delivered.

A twin-engine multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft produced by the European consortium Eurofighter GmbH, Eurofighter Typhoon has been ordered by six countries so far that includes Austria and Saudi Arabia besides the four partnering nations.

Italy, however, had announced last year to bring down its original planned purchase for 121 such fighters to 96 in order to save around $2.6 billion as part of a national debt reduction plan.
 
@ Sancho
So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.
So Typhoon aesa is not yet ready...??/
 
Which is just another point against it when compared to the Super Hornet and the Typhoon. It could be one of the factors that causes it to loose the competition.

Doubtful, because AESA radar and a specific range seems to be a requirement and both are already fulfilled by the Rafale, but you don't need the best radar to be deadly in BVR. Unlike the F18SH, the Rafale don't rely on a single sensor only and offers AESA radar for active -, the IRST and the TV channel of FSO, but more important SPECTRA EWS for passive detection and weapon guidance. Combine that with MICA EM, METEOR, or even MICA IR, which can be used at the same BVR ranges as the EM version, data links and the low RCS and you have a great BVR combo!


So Typhoon aesa is not yet ready...??/

No, because the partner countries still did not cleared fundings for the development, it is only pre-funded of the companies for some month. They plan to have the first flight of an operational version in 2013 and the frist EF with AESA to be delivered in 2015 and all this only if the fundings will be ready in time and the development don't run into problems.


Italy, however, had announced last year to bring down its original planned purchase for 121 such fighters to 96 in order to save around $2.6 billion as part of a national debt reduction plan.

Actually they reduced the number of EFs, in favour of F35s, because that is the fighter they put their focus on, just like UK. The more they will get into financial problems, the less EFs they will procure and try to divert their orders to other contries, or cancell them completely.
 
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