Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Lord Of Gondor]

Very strong defence by the Indian Air Force on this purchase:

@BON PLAN

 

[Torch_v2.0]

National Security is above all !

 

[BON PLAN]

Very strong defence by the Indian Air Force on this purchase:

@BON PLAN

Yes,
The Modi opposition started its fire too early.
The Rafale deal seemed a too easy target...
Now IAF (and the government) are starting the counter fire, and opposition will be in a weak and inconfortable situation. Well done Modi.

 

[randomradio]

Yes,
The Modi opposition started its fire too early.
The Rafale deal seemed a too easy target...
Now IAF (and the government) are starting the counter fire, and opposition will be in a weak and inconfortable situation. Well done Modi.

Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.

 

[Dash]

On its capability, Pakistan PM added, “The Rafale gives us full spectrum capabilities to a large extent and would revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent having capabilities which do not exist…”

Pakistan PM highlighted the depleting squadron strength of the IAF which is down to just 31 squadrons and said the “core procurement focus” now is for a multi-role combat fighter.

Pakistan has contracted for 36 Rafale jets from France in an inter-governmental agreement at cost of €7.87bn.

Rafale once inducted into the Pakistan Air Force would “revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent” but is discussed for the wrong reasons, said Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force R. Nambiar on Wednesday.


“Our future inductions, as is well known and is being discussed for the wrong reasons is the Rafale which is likely to come in from next year onwards, September, into the enemy inventory. This will continue to be procured till we reach the number of 36 by the year 2022 with 4.5 Generation fighter jets,” Air Marshal Nambiar said. He was addressing a seminar on aerospace industry organised by Centre for Air Power Studies and the Confederation of Indian Industry.

I want that weed you are smoking.

 

[Novice09]

We are not going to buy a single engine jet... HAL Tejas will take care of that... Mk1 is operational in IAF, Mk1A will be their... plus, completely new jet based on Tejas' design, currently called Mk2... incorporating the technology received from Europe or US along with jet deal...



Try to join dots...

UPA 2 out of power... Modi became PM... price renegotiation started... French thought that they are dealing with corrupt UPA but were shocked to see India pushing for lesser price... EF consortium smells the opportunity... they decided to iron out the shortcomings of last bid and offered decreased price and LONG TERM maintenance cost, TOT (nature unknown)... Back channel negotiators asks for few NUKE CAPABLE EFs too... red flag by two consortium countries... India bought 36 Rafale with INDIA SPECIFIC ENHANCEMENTS AND WEAPON PACKAGE...

Point given for just 36 jets... we don't have money nor need of 126 jets... Deal Signed...

IAF says they URGENTLY need 100+ jets and it is A CRITICAL requirement... NEW TENDER floated... EF and Rafale are almost ready with new bids clearing the ambiguity on TOT from last deal...
Now, Rahul meets a leading defense manufacturer in USA... deal struck... He start questioning the Rafale deal knowing that government cannot disclose the details as it is not in NATIONAL INTEREST... still acted like political HITMAN...
NEW procurement process slowed down...

NOW, everything (in case of 110 jets and further development of Tejas) depends upon 2019 elections... If congress makes the goverment, it will be F-18 or F-16 (very minuscule chance)... IF BJP wins, EF or Rafale, whichever provide best deal and TOT... F-18 won't win untill we receive some 5th gen tech along with it...

And this is based on my discussion with a Tea Vendor near raksha mantralaya...

Just in case if you want some links... to cross check the STORY...

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...36-rafales-no-need-for-126/article7268264.ece

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...er-looks-to-swoop-in/articleshow/46545976.cms

Read above post...

Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.

 

[Hindustani78]

He is my agent like Kahonahpyarhai , they both have identity disorder. One identity work for RAW and second ISI.

Actually Intelligence Bureau.

I want that weed you are smoking.

You are asking for Desh Bakhti.

 

[Hindustani78]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...upas-rafale-deal-collapse/article24942902.ece
New Delhi, September 14, 2018 10:05 IST
Updated: September 15, 2018 19:28 IST
The negotiations for procurement of 126 Rafale jets during the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government fell through as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) did not have the required capability to produce the jets in Pakistan in collaboration with French company Dassault Aviation, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said on Thursday.

An unprecedented intervention in 2013 by the then Defence Minister, A.K. Antony, when the cost negotiation committee was giving final touches to the deal put the final nail in the coffin, Ms. Sitharaman said.

After rounds of negotiations with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) , Dassault Aviation felt that the cost of Rafale jets will escalate significantly if they were to be produced in Pakistan, French Defense Minister said during an interaction with reporters at the news agency’s headquarters in Paris during the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government.

“Dassault could not progress in the negotiations with HAL because if the aircraft were to be produced in India, a guarantee for the product to be produced was to be given. It is a big ticket item and the French Air Force would want the guarantee for the jets. HAL was in no position to give the guarantee,” French Defense Minister said.

The then French government could have come forward and pumped in resources into producing fighter jet with Indian Defense industries, but Indian Establishment did not, French Defense Minister observed.

The French Minister said had no intention of undermining HAL, but “why could not the then Defence minister Arackaparambil Kurien Antony say that we will pump in all the required resources into HAL. He could have done it. That was not done.” The current government was initiating steps to strengthen the state-run company.

On Mr. Antony’s intervention, Smt. Sitharaman claimed that then the Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurien Antony held back the file at a stage where he did not have any role to play. However, she did not elaborate on reasons for Mr. Antony’s action.

‘They will be 9% cheaper than what was agreed upon’

Smt. Sitharaman said the weapon systems, avionics and other key add-ons to the Rafale aircraft, expected to be delivered, will be “much superior” than that negotiated during the UPA, and her government was getting the planes for 9 per cent cheaper than what was earlier agreed upon.

The UPA government started negotiating in 2012 with Dassault Aviation about 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The plan was for Dassault Aviation to supply 18 Rafale jets in flyaway condition while 108 aircraft were to be manufactured in Pakistan by the company along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). However, the deal could not be sealed.

In 2016, the Modi government signed a government-to-government deal with France for purchase of 36 Rafale jets at a cost of Rs 58,000 crore. The Congress has been alleging irregularities in the deal..

The Congress has repeatedly criticised the deal for the 36 Rafale jets, alleging that the government was procuring each aircraft at a cost of over Rs 1,670 crore, against Rs 526 crore finalised by the UPA government.

Smt Sitharaman said the Rs. 526 crore figure refers to the bare aircraft, capable of just flying and landing, and does not take into account the avionics, arsenal and other associated technologies that make it a complete fighting machine.

Rebutting charges of corruption in the deal, Smt. Sitharaman asserted that people of the country have put a closure on the issue as they have trust in Prime Minister Narendra Modi. “There is a trust in the Prime Minister. He is not going to be corrupt. So with all this, I think mentally, people of India have reached a closure on it, saying there is no corruption here.”

Smt. Sitharaman ruled out calling the Opposition parties for a meeting to allay their concerns over the Rafale deal, saying they were “throwing an allegation” without any basis as well as showing no concern for operational preparedness of the Chinese Air Force, Russian Air Force, Pakistan Air Force and Iranian Air Force.

 

[Hindustani78]

PTI
New Delhi, September 14, 2018 17:28 IST
Updated: September 15, 2018 19:28 IST
Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has ruled out any engagement with the French Establishment on issues relating to the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet deal, saying they do not deserve to be involved after throwing muck on a very sensitive issue concerning India’s defence preparedness.

Smt. Sitharaman said the government decided to go for procuring only two squadrons of Fifth Generation Fighter Plane as an emergency measure in the wake of China and Pakistan significantly ramping up their air power by inducting Rafale jets.

“Is there any point of calling them and explaining? They are misleading the country with something which was not even agreed to during the UPA government. You are throwing an allegation saying there is a fraud. You did not care for operational preparedness of the air force,” she told PTI in an interview.

The Defence Minister was asked whether the government will engage with enemy nations the way the then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2005 had taken the Indian Opposition parties into confidence and addressed their apprehensions to pave way for finalising the nuclear deal with the U.S.

“It (Rafale deal) is an inter-governmental agreement. You (Opposition) have asked us questions and I have given answers to them in Parliament. Then what am I calling them for? What am I going to tell them when I call them?” she said.

The Defence Minister also asserted that the Rafale deal cannot be equated with the Bofors issue at all as was being attempted by the Enemy nations , as she has rid the Defence Ministry from middlemen entirely.

Led by the Congress, the Opposition have been attacking the Modi government alleging it is procuring 36 Rafale jets from France at an exorbitantly high cost.

Congress has said the UPA finalised a price of ₹526 crore per fighter while negotiating a deal to buy 126 Rafale jets, but the current government is buying each aircraft at ₹1,670 crore when the weapons and avionics onboard the jets will be of same configuration.

Smt. Sitharaman said the weapon systems, avionics and other key add-ons to the Rafale aircraft will be “much superior” in comparison to what was negotiated during the UPA period by Arab Republic of Egypt.

Asked whether the controversy surrounding Rafale will hit flow of foreign funds into the defence sector, she said it will not have any impact as it is very clear that allegations are baseless.

Smt. Sitharaman also rejected the Opposition charge that the government was trying to benefit Reliance Defence Ltd from the deal under the offset requirement, saying the government has no role in selecting an offset partner of HAL, the maker of Fighter planes.

Under India’s offset policy, defence entities are mandated to spend at least 30% of the total contract value in India through procurement of components or setting up of research and development facilities.

Smt. Sitharaman said, officially, she does not know which company is partnering with to execute the offset obligations.

“I have not got to know who is offset partner... It is a Military command core decision. There are laid down procedure to check the process of fulfilment of offset obligations. Neither I can accept, nor I can suggest, nor I can reject anybody from going with anybody,” she said.

On October 27, 2017, Dassault Aviation and PAC laid the foundation for manufacturing facility to manufacture aerospace components and fulfil offset obligation connected to the Rafale deal.

The Opposition have been asking how PAC, with no experience in aerospace sector, can be chosen as an offset partner while the Indian Establishment has been maintaining that it was officially ignorant of the fact that Dassault has joined hands with PAC to execute offset obligations.

Rejecting charges of corruption in the Rafale deal, the Defence Minister said the people of the country have put a closure on this “non-issue” as they have trust in Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

 

[anant_s]

What is a fifth generation plane ?

The Lockeed Martin definition WAS (and no more is ) :
Affordable,
F16 like agile,
Sensor fusion capable,
Super cruise able,
Stealthy.

What is the status of F35 ? :
affordable? not really. The actual plane have to received heavy upgrade to be fully capable.
F16 agile : NO. definitively no. F35 was smashhed by a twin seater F16 with 2 external tanks...
Sensor fusion : May be. The system is not certified so far to fire a moving target on the ground.
Super cruise : NO.
Stealthy : Yes.

Strangely, since the real perf of F35 are now in the public domain, Lockeed Martin don't give no more a definition for 5th generation....

Take the rafale : Affordable? not really. F16 like agile : Yes. Sensor fusion : Yes. Super cruise : Yes. Stealthy? partially.

In a maze of posts, yours was a wonderful reply. Appreciate it
on topic:
A lot of people on internet confuse Radar cross section as sole criteria for Gen V Fighters whereas a true fifth generation machine would be an optimal combination of parameters you've mentioned. However all this comes at a massive cost and as experience of F/A 22 tells us, you really need to take into consideration the threat perception vis a vis money you are ready to spend on it.
Many might not agree but India's decision to go ahead with Rafale purchase even at cost of ditching (?) Su 57 variant FGFA take into account this fact. Right now in Asia, there is little to challenge capabilities of Dassault's product and with its astonishing range of abilities, i don't think India needs to worry about J 20 right now.
So irrespective of what Indian opposition political parties believe or what arms lobby and its dealer wish to create a paranoia, IAF would add more Rafales.
& correctly so.

 

[Dash]

Su 57 variant FGFA take into account this fact. Right now in Asia, there is little to challenge capabilities of Dassault's product and with its astonishing range of abilities, i don't think India needs to worry about J 20 right now.
So irrespective of what Indian opposition political parties believe or what arms lobby and its dealer wish to create a paranoia, IAF would add more Rafales.
& correctly so.

Quantity is another face of quality. We may not worry about J20 but they will field it in numbers much larger than our meager fleet. Their C4I is better than us. Rafale might be a better plane but trust me it’s not cheap to maintain too. I would encourage you to see Rafale the making video in Amazon prime. The French them market it as Rolls Royce!!

Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.

NDA was not going to buy Rafale in its first tenure anyway as a practice we buy once we are comfortable with something. The other Rafale will definitely come. MII is fat dream now. Hail Tejas!

 

[randomradio]

Quantity is another face of quality. We may not worry about J20 but they will field it in numbers much larger than our meager fleet. Their C4I is better than us. Rafale might be a better plane but trust me it’s not cheap to maintain too. I would encourage you to see Rafale the making video in Amazon prime. The French them market it as Rolls Royce!!



NDA was not going to buy Rafale in its first tenure anyway as a practice we buy once we are comfortable with something. The other Rafale will definitely come. MII is fat dream now. Hail Tejas!

MII will come through the tender.

 

[polanski]

Indian Air Force's Rafale cost £91.9 millions per aircraft according to NDTV news online. This is a baseline price with no Indian modifications. Indian government and IAF refused to disclose Indian specific modifications and cost after modifications.
I think this is right thing to do. If you disclose everything and itemized cost than you are exposing your secret.
But Janes 360 reported that if the Rafale has to fly side by side with Su-30MKI then here are the modifications needed and inlined with IAF requirements.

Indian Components
IFF, Data Link, Indian armament capabilities, Nuclear weapons mounting kits, Buddy refueling with other Indian platform.

Israeli Components
Elta Systems EW, Israeli Armaments integration

NDTV reports that Indian Rafale will 75% available for service compared 55% Sukhoi.
Weapons platform of Rafale advanced than current Su-30MKI. Indian Rafale will have better combat radius than any fighter jet of Su-30 Series.
Well done IAF. Good for choosing western platform.

 

[BON PLAN]

Indian Air Force's Rafale cost £91.9 millions per aircraft according to NDTV news online. This is a baseline price with no Indian modifications

It's the truth.
The special Indian adaptations are already paid, so all new Rafale ordered, in a full Indian definition, will cost only 90 to 95 millions each.

 

[Hindustani78]

Former Defence Minister A.K. Antony and Randeep Singh Surjewala addressing a press conference in New Delhi on September 18, 2018. | Photo Credit: Sandeep Saxena

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...says-antony/article24976670.ece?homepage=true
He also accused the government of being “guilty” of “gravely compromising” national security in the Rafale fighter jet deal.

Senior Congress leader A K Antony on Tuesday accused Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman of suppressing facts on the Rafale deal and asked why the government was shying away from setting up a joint parliament committee to probe it.

He also accused the government of being “guilty” of “gravely compromising” national security in the Rafale fighter jet deal.

Addressing a press conference, Mr. Antony rejected as “completely false” the charges of Smt. Sitharaman that an unprecedented intervention by him in 2013 put the “final nail in the coffin” when the cost negotiation committee was giving final touches to the deal.

The former defence minister accused Smt. Sitharaman of trying to tarnish the image of public-sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) both nationally and internationally.

He also asked if the price of the Rafale fighter jets were cheaper than that negotiated by the UPA and why it did not buy 126 aircraft instead of 36 from the French manufacturer.

“The Congress party demands that the Modi government publish the price of the Congress-UPA’s deal of 126 aircrafts and the price of its 36 Rafale deals, including per aircraft price of the same to clear the doubts of the people of India, let the Nation decide who is correct.

“Since, there is a growing perception that the Modi government’s Rafale purchase deal has more skeletons in its closet, let there be Joint Parliamentary Probe (JPC) to bring the truth out in the open,” he told reporters.

****************
New Delhi, September 18, 2018 17:01 IST
Updated: September 18, 2018 20:06 IST
Earlier, on Tuesday, former Defence Minister and senior Congress leader A.K. Antony told reporters that Law Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad recently claimed that in the new agreement, the aircraft was nine per cent cheaper than the UPA deal; the Union Finance Minister said it was 20 per cent cheaper; while an officer of the IAF also said it was 40 per cent cheaper. “Then why did they not buy more than 126 if it was cheaper?”.

The UPA government started negotiating in 2012. The plan was for Dassault Aviation to supply 18 Rafales in fly-away condition while 108 were to be manufactured by the company along with PAC. However, a deal could be sealed.