Creation of Bangladesh

[Always Neutral]

Why would it make more sense for Bangladesh and Pakistan to co-operate vis vis say Burma, Singapore, Thailand etc as they lie in the same geographic locations ? Bangladesh with its large gas reserves must make China and India its buyers as once large economic gas co-operation begins all the economies get interlinked and relations will become better. Pakistan frankly lies in a different geographical location and though both countries have historical ties, economic ties in only certain sectors may only be beneficial.

Regds

 

[BanglaBhoot]

My feelings on Bangladesh are probably pretty well known. I don't agree that Bangladesh or East Pakistan was discriminated against by West Pakistan - nor even dominated by West Pakistanis, when 3 or 4 of the prime ministers in the first 10 years of Pakistan's inception were of East Pakistani/Bengali roots. Statistics have proved that these prime ministers spent less on East Pakistan than Ayub Khan did in the 60s. Private investment was a different matter. What should have been done, the rich Muhajirs from Bharat should have been forced to live in East Pakistan or something?

I'm willing to discuss this at length, since noone has been able to disprove my case as yet + I always like a good debate and I'm not one of these docile Pakistanis you get on these types of forums that believe all the nonsense heaped on Pakistan by Bangladeshis or anyone else.

I think you are probably concentrating too much on the differences rather than the commonalities between the two countries which I think is a more critical issue at this point in time. I am not so conversant about the economic arguments concerning pre-1971 Pakistan as I am from the post-1971 generation and have no recollection of the period. I should, nevertheless, mention that my grandfather was a founder member of the Awami League, a MNA as well as one of the top 10 exporters to West Pakistan during the 1950's and 60's. He was a good friend of Field Marshal Ayub Khan and other senior political figures of Pakistan. After 1971 much of my grandfathers business was destroyed but I think it unnecessary to dwell on these issues as Bangladesh is a country that the people of this region sacrificed their lives for and now with things having changed significantly from 36 years ago we should concentrate on areas of cooperation.

 

[salman nedian]

frankly speaking i beleive that Kilings of Bangladeshis in 1971 is more a propaganda by India.and we cannot forgive India for creating misunderstandings b/w 2 parts of a Country. I think the best way to take revenge is reuniting the 2 Big Muslim Countries of sub-continent, i do not believe in all the nonsense heaped on Pakistan.and if an Indian say this i would realy oppose that.but in case of a Bangladeshi i can understand the misunderstandings.that's why i always say that we should look forward.

 

[HK-47]

yes we should move forward true but also with the memories in the back of our heads and the lessons learned from such fighting.the killings weren't all propaganda.and Pak administrators had faults of their own too.so if India was really trying to separate the two,Pak helped them a lot by mistreating the Bangladeshis and fuelling dissent.
anyways I don't care much of the war either.I think Pakistan is a better friend of Bangladesh than India is.I am not anti-India;I just don't like their policies towards us.

Off-topic:Is it true that India have send oil and gas exploration teams in our waters?I heard some reports about it.
does the S.Talpatti island fall within our maritime borders?

 

[roadrunner]

so if India was really trying to separate the two,Pak helped them a lot by mistreating the Bangladeshis and fuelling dissent.

Pak didn't really mistreat anyone specifically. Dissent was fuelled by Mujib's propaganda speeches that Pak was mistreating East Pakistan for example during the cyclone etc - this was all done at Bharat's behest.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I think the point being made by HK47 is that Pakistan omitted to act in the interests of East Pakistan. The cyclone is only one example where West Pakistan failed to take any initiative even after an estimated 3 million died. As Neo and Salman mentioned earlier unless there was some underlying anomalies Indian propaganda would have been useless. Indian propaganda exploited already existing deficiencies they just didn't make it all up they simply exaggerated it but that did not make East Pakistanis feel any less hurt.

 

[roadrunner]

I think the point being made by HK47 is that Pakistan omitted to act in the interests of East Pakistan. The cyclone is only one example where West Pakistan failed to take any initiative even after an estimated 3 million died. As Neo and Salman mentioned earlier unless there was some underlying anomalies Indian propaganda would have been useless. Indian propaganda exploited already existing deficiencies they just didn't make it all up they simply exaggerated it but that did not make East Pakistanis feel any less hurt.

Dude, what's with you and this 3 million figure? The cyclone did claim hundreds of thousands of lives and perhaps it might have edged up till a quarter of a mill, but no way 3 million.

If you look at the toll from the 2005 earthquake, it was something like the same as the cyclone. Pakistan couldnt cope with an earthquake of this magnitude, so there was no way it could cope with a cyclone of about the same devastation. However, Pakistan did establish an ERC (Emergency Relief Cell) in East Pakistan following the cyclone. Now the main beef the Bangladeshis had (as Mujib mentioned to them), was that the response of the Pakistani government was inadequate for the scale of the disaster. It's was typical for his speeches, a twisting of the truth. There was no way Pakistan could cope with the scale of the disaster but it did what it could - just like during the 2005 earthquake it did what it could..but all this was not Indian propaganda. It was Mujib's propaganda which was supported by the Bharatis. There's a volunteer group from somewhere like the Phillipines that went there and said much the same that the Pakistani government did what it could - it would be stupid to have hampered the rescue process with the whole world watching.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

The figure may be wrong but it seems to be popular but that is not a point I am going to contest. Lets just say a lot of people died. Kissinger gives the figure of 200,000.

Just for discussions sake could you give me your opinion on the allegation that money from East Pakistan was used to build the capital in Islamabad while virtually no development occurred in the Eastern part. I would like a few references on this issue for research that I am doing on that period and your input would be invaluable to me.

I hope you will understand that I am just trying to understand better the circumstances of the division in 1971 and India's role. Also what is your opinion on the view expressed by Neo and Salman about the grievances felt by East Pakistan (or even both sides) to which Indian propaganda could easily exploit. In other words, if there was no underlying problems how could Indian propaganda be so effective that it could result in the break up of Pakistan?

 

[Adux]

Be thankful that you got your freedom.

 

[roadrunner]

The figure may be wrong but it seems to be popular but that is not a point I am going to contest. Lets just say a lot of people died. Kissinger gives the figure of 200,000.

Just for discussions sake could you give me your opinion on the allegation that money from East Pakistan was used to build the capital in Islamabad while virtually no development occurred in the Eastern part. I would like a few references on this issue for research that I am doing on that period and your input would be invaluable to me.

I hope you will understand that I am just trying to understand better the circumstances of the division in 1971 and India's role. Also what is your opinion on the view expressed by Neo and Salman about the grievances felt by East Pakistan (or even both sides) to which Indian propaganda could easily exploit. In other words, if there was no underlying problems how could Indian propaganda be so effective that it could result in the break up of Pakistan?

You ask reasonable questions and give the impression of an open mind which is good for the sake of discussion. East Pakistan did produce quite a bit of export, I think more than West Pakistan is what the figures show. However, when Pakistan was formed, the central government was poor, the Muhajirs from Bharat were rich as they owned banks and brought with them plenty of money to Karachi. The rich Muhajirs were not government employees, they contributed private investment all over the country. One example was Adamjee's jute mill which was established in East Pakistan. It was one of the biggest in the world, and produced a lot of income. This was a private mill, which would not have been included in any government budget. I've seen a lot of tables about government spending, but you have to know this ignores private investment. Of course whatever was produced by Adamjee's jute mill was his own money and he might have invested some back into West Pakistan or some into East Pakistan. So government spending figures are just one side of private investment in the early Pakistan, perhaps the East was getting more private investment, it's difficult to say. The more important point was that West Pakistan was much less developed than East Pakistan following Partition. Bengal for example had many more schools, and much better roads etc. The Pakistani government wanted to equal out these inequalities and make more schools in West Pakistan so that both West and East Pakistanis got the same access to education. It needed more money of course. I'll get back to the references, not sure what either neo or salman said, if they repeat it it'll be easier.

The Bharatis werent involved in the propaganda. Mujib was the mouthpiece of Bharati propaganda. That is what made it effective. He wanted an independent country, Bharat was willing to support him in any way. He sort of sold his soul to the devil there.

 

[roadrunner]

Be thankful that you got your freedom.

You rarely have anything intelligent to contribute, so i'd prefer it if you don't post your one line spam in this thread.

 

[salman nedian]

You rarely have anything intelligent to contribute, so i'd prefer it if you don't post your one line spam in this thread.

Well said!

 

[BanglaBhoot]

The Bharatis werent involved in the propaganda. Mujib was the mouthpiece of Bharati propaganda. That is what made it effective. He wanted an independent country, Bharat was willing to support him in any way. He sort of sold his soul to the devil there.

This is the only part that I have a real difference of opinion with you.

I am not an expert on the economic situation of West Pakistan so I cannot comment on those issues without further study. Overall your views do make sense but please forward me the references on the economic questions or if anyone else can help out please let me know.

In reference to your comment cited above I think you will find that Shiekh Mujib did not expect or want full independence. He was rather aiming for autonomy. This interpretation would explain why he did not declare independence before the March 26, 1971 crackdown and why he meekly surrendered to Pakistani forces. As he had won the 1970 elections he expected to be the Prime Minister of Pakistan but this Bhutto would not accept. Shiekh Mujib then thought autonomy to be the next best option and even Bhutto seemed to see promise in this compromise. It has been shown that Mujib was negotiating with the Pakistan military right up to the last minute and even during his confinement.

On his release he appeared genuinely surprised that Bangladesh had achieved independence and also without him. The mistake was for the Pakistan military to have gone for the crackdown option as this played directly into Indian hands. Sheikh Mujib had been trying to play India against the Pakistan military hoping for a better settlement for him with Yahya but this ultimately backfired. Once independence was achieved he became completely captive to Indian interests through his nephew Sheikh Fazlul Haq Moni.

From around 1960 India had been cultivating a few young students in East Pakistan to cause disturbances including Tofail Ahmed, Abdur Razzak and a few others. Later on during the war Moni was also recruited into this set up. Mujib initially did show some interest in dealing with India hence the Agartala conspiracy case but this was really being pushed behind the scenes by some of his family members, student leaders and a number of military personnel. After the crackdown these elements ran the show from Calcutta and then again after independence right up until the 1975 coup. Up to that point Bangladesh had become an Indian satellite state. Prior to independence Mujib had only shown a hesitating interest in India and mainly as a bargaining tool with Yahya but he refused to sign a Faustian pact with New Delhi until 1974 when he agreed to the terms of the 25 years Friendship Treaty whose co signatory was Indira Gandhi.

You will find the sources for all this information in my book The India Doctrine.

 

[Maddy]

Munshi,

You wrote a book!! Quite an anchievment i'd say.

"The India Doctrine" - From an non-indian. That should make interesting reading.

Can post you an e-copy of the book or perhaps a few selected chapters.

 

[salman nedian]

Actually the Problem was that both the parts of the country were separated from each other by 1000 miles so due to that there was lack of communication due to which the reservations of people of East could not be removed also the Leaders of that time (Bhutto and Mujib) exploited the situation to gain the power.i agree with roadrunner there was earth quake in 2005 but the Government could not react swiftly.same was the case with flood in East Pakistan it as difficult for Government to react quickly in a province which was 1000 miles away, that created doubts in the minds of People of East Pakistan which could not be removed b/c of lack of communication and some powers gained advantage of that situation.