Creating a new Medina

[Qaiser Ali Khan]

You wrote mostly useless thing but never answer how partition solved the problems of Muslims of Hindu majority provinces which Muslim League once claimed for them. As I previously said, partition was best solution politically as Muslim League comprised of incompentent leaders not fit to sit in India's constituent assembly because they would have made negative contibution meant to cause delays, they even failed Pakistan's constituent assembly when all of it was dominated by Muslim League. Muslim League would have brought disaster for India's democracy, so I support partition political solution but not as an ideological solution.

First of all i dont give a damn to how my opinion affects you. Secondly for you information regarding the competency of leaderships of congress or Muslim League, read this article which i doubt you wont.

Two Men From Gujarat
by Patrick french
in outlookindia

 

[Armstrong]

I cherish a day when a book would come out, that is well-received, where the argument is put forth 'whether British India should've gained independence from Britain altogether or not' especially in light of the atrocious conditions of the people of South Asia from abject poverty to female foetus infanticide or from religious intolerance to fanaticism along ethnic, linguistic or sub-national lines !

I don't know why people are so keen to de-construct & re-construct Pakistan's formation endlessly which is frankly moronic & absolutely duplicitous when the same people won't ever question or even entertain a question on the formation of India, Bangladesh or a whole host of other countries within the region & without the region as if those things are self-evident & without reproach !

A Britisher may well be justified in asking that with 55.3% of Indians, 49.5% of Bangladeshis & 45.6% of Pakistanis living in Multidimensional Poverty even 67years after we left & failing miserably in just about every other human development indicator that the UNDP Human Development Report of 2014 cared to measure you guys on - Why the heck did you go for an Independent State ? Maybe you guys were better off under the Gora Sahib ?

But do we talk about this ? No.....its much easier to endlessly discuss Pakistan by quoting the same figures or by saying a bomb blast here or a bomb blast there & voila the country doesn't have any legs to stand on or it shouldn't have been created or it was a British Conspiracy or it was a Bluff or any of these other endless extrapolations from Statistics without a single moment spent in introspection by saying 'Maybe because the same things or worse have been happening in India or Bangladesh for the past 67 years.....we don't have a leg to stand on either or maybe ours was a Conspiracy too or any of those other wonderful pieces of 'opinions' that are highlighted as scholarly works whenever it comes to Pakistan !

The hypocrisy & the intellectual ossification is nauseating !

 

[INDIC]

First of all i dont give a damn to how my opinion affects you. Secondly for you information regarding the competency of leaderships of congress or Muslim League, read this article which i doubt you wont.

Two Men From Gujarat
by Patrick french
in outlookindia

Pakistan's constituent Assembly full of Nawabs and Landlords couldn't write a constitution of Pakistan and dissolved in the lifetime of Liaquat Ali Khan and ultimately leading to Ayub Khan coming to power. Muslim League thus sitting in India's Constituent Assembly were only to create nuisance and many key reforms like making India a republic, accession of princely states, eradicating feudalism, reorganization of provinces would have remained a distant dream because Muslim League would never have let them happen.

 

[SrNair]

We always trusted you
It was your leaders who always like to keep this issues alive.Only for their own personal interests .
My friends brothers who worked as a supervisor in a construction company met a few Pak workers.According to him they are hard workers,good and innocent people.
They told him that a section of elite comprising religious leaders ,military and others are creating all this issues.People like them are too afraid about them.
That guys caused kargil and another provocation for domestic authority.
In India you cant see such peoples
we always kept such peoples away from govt circles.
And then again 26/11.Such a level of testing of patience.
Like I said we always trusted you.But in return we got betrayal.
Our Army would get a lot of money even if there is no skirmished with Pak.Because they are in a path of modernisation against other powerful enemies.So even they want a peace with Pakistan.

 

[Qaiser Ali Khan]

We always trusted you
It was your leaders who always like to keep this issues alive.Only for their own personal interests .
My friends brothers who worked as a supervisor in a construction company met a few Pak workers.According to him they are hard workers,good and innocent people.
They told him that a section of elite comprising religious leaders ,military and others are creating all this issues.People like them are too afraid about them.
That guys caused kargil and another provocation for domestic authority.
In India you cant see such peoples
we always kept such peoples away from govt circles.
And then again 26/11.Such a level of testing of patience.
Like I said we always trusted you.But in return we got betrayal.
Our Army would get a lot of money even if there is no skirmished with Pak.Because they are in a path of modernisation against other powerful enemies.So even they want a peace with Pakistan.

Dear friend, give Kashmir its right to decide its fate, go back from Siachen glacier to the position before 1984, stop using afghan soil against Pakistan from your consulates in Qnadhar and jalalabad and believe me, you wont find a better friend than us. As i said, every action has a reaction, Pakistan army and intelligence agencies will never calm down until India stop poking us. 26/11 is a sad incident, it could have been avoided by you had you not persecuted Kashmiri muslims. This act was done by a bunch of young men who are a by-product of indian policy about kashmir. we dont want Kashmir, let it decide its own fate, but we do want siachen as it is our territory.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now you are assuming here we are way ahead than pakistan... In reality Both nations are no way near the vision with which this nations were created......

The core of the vision, the visionary core, or whichever way it is articulated, was independence. A release from bondage. Everything else was secondary.

During these 67 years journey we faced 5 wars,countless sanctions ,insurgencies etc .We faced some unique challenges that no other nations dont had to face in their history ,even our neighbour Pakistan .
Churchil gave us 20 years time for our nationhood when we got independence from them.But hey still we are here .
Democracy is joke in most of the third world nations.But somehow we still remain as tge most dynamic democracy in this world.We can said against Congress whatever we want.But their PMs including Nehru always give us a good way .He had a courage for establishing ISRO when our citizens face dire poverty and constant criticism from opposition.

You are right we are still facing a lot of challenges .Seven of our states is in a sub saharan standard with half of our 125 crore population.
But I have an average satisfaction about all these 67 years.
But still a longway to go.

With respect, while I agree with the substance of your views, I do not agree with the orientation.

We were one colony and 535 princely states (the number may be wrong) before 1947. After 1947, we were two countries. There is, and was no need to make constant comparisons between the two. There is, and was no need to deliberate on the utility of creating Pakistan. Once it was created, and its citizens accepted their citizenship of their country, there is little or no point in questioning its foundation.

 

[SrNair]

Dear friend, give Kashmir its right to decide its fate, go back from Siachen glacier to the position before 1984, stop using afghan soil against Pakistan from your consulates in Qnadhar and jalalabad and believe me, you wont find a better friend than us. As i said, every action has a reaction, Pakistan army and intelligence agencies will never calm down until India stop poking us. 26/11 is a sad incident, it could have been avoided by you had you not persecuted Kashmiri muslims. This act was done by a bunch of young men who are a by-product of indian policy about kashmir. we dont want Kashmir, let it decide its own fate, but we do want siachen as it is our territory.

The rootcause of Kashmir issue is started from 1947-48 incident tribal invasion.
If your nation didnt do that perhaps all kashmir issue might solve a long time ago.But let me ask you one question.Can you trust the Kashmiris who call Indian Army when your nation take an effort in 1990s to help them?
Then they looted and tortured Pandits the son of soil.We have responsivility to protect them.
And rest of your issues.That is just a paranoia.

 

[Qaiser Ali Khan]

The rootcause of Kashmir issue is started from 1947-48 incident tribal invasion.
If your nation didnt do that perhaps all kashmir issue might solve a long time ago.But let me ask you one question.Can you trust the Kashmiris who call Indian Army when your nation take an effort in 1990s to help them?
Then they looted and tortured Pandits the son of soil.We have responsivility to protect them.
And rest of your issues.That is just a paranoia.

I think we should leave this debate. Lets hope for the best.

 

[INDIC]

Dear friend, give Kashmir its right to decide its fate, go back from Siachen glacier to the position before 1984, stop using afghan soil against Pakistan from your consulates in Qnadhar and jalalabad and believe me, you wont find a better friend than us. As i said, every action has a reaction, Pakistan army and intelligence agencies will never calm down until India stop poking us. 26/11 is a sad incident, it could have been avoided by you had you not persecuted Kashmiri muslims. This act was done by a bunch of young men who are a by-product of indian policy about kashmir. we dont want Kashmir, let it decide its own fate, but we do want siachen as it is our territory.

Even Kashmir hadn't existed, Pakistan would have still been India's enemy because you see it as Hindu-Muslim perspective and so called 1000 years rule on India and you believe it started with Muhammad Bin Qasim. Kashmir or any other thing are not the main cause.

 

[Qaiser Ali Khan]

Even Kashmir hadn't existed, Pakistan would have still been India's enemy because you see it as Hindu-Muslim perspective and so called 1000 years rule on India and you believe it started with Muhammad Bin Qasim. Kashmir or any other thing are not the main cause.

No. You are mistaken. This is a new pretext of not giving Kashmiries their right of self-determination.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You compare history of India and Pakistan bit by bit, India has fared far better. Nobody is talking about the ideal case. The Muslim League was the party of incompetent leaders who even failed the first constituent assembly of Pakistan. Had India not been partitioned, India becoming a republic in 1950, getting rid of feudalism, linguistic states, accession of princely states would have remained a distant dreams.

But why ARE we comparing the two histories? In what way is it relevant? We were one country once; we are two countries now. How and why should we compare ourselves with each other? And to what point?

 

[Armstrong]

But why ARE we comparing the two histories? In what way is it relevant? We were one country once; we are two countries now. How and why should we compare ourselves with each other? And to what point?

Eik hi pal mein paraya kar diyaaa ?

Waisee do you know how to tie a full windsor knot - I can't seem to figure it out !

 

[Joe Shearer]

You compare history of India and Pakistan bit by bit, India has fared far better. Nobody is talking about the ideal case. The Muslim League was the party of incompetent leaders who even failed the first constituent assembly of Pakistan. Had India not been partitioned, India becoming a republic in 1950, getting rid of feudalism, linguistic states, accession of princely states would have remained a distant dreams.

Parallel history is a most dangerous self-indulgence.

Jinnah called himself as representatives of all Indian Muslims, India still have both the communities and hardly few of the Muslim from Hindu majority provinces went to Pakistan. I can't understand, how the problem was solved in Jinnah's logic.

It is explained carefully and in detail in the article itself. Do take a look - at leisure.

 

[Armstrong]

Parallel history is a most dangerous self-indulgence.

And it doesn't achieve anything barring a bloated head, revisionism & a perpetual state of animosity with the 'other' whosoever that 'other' maybe !

The bottom line is that both Pakistan & India are marginally better than each other in some areas & marginally worst off in others with the occasional brilliance in the odd area otherwise we're both countries riddled with serious issues of every shape & size & no amount of jingoistic demonization of the 'other' while extolling the virtues of the 'self' - BY EITHER SIDE - can wish away our deplorable state of affairs !

If there is one country in South Asia that is worth comparing with - Its probably Sri Lanka not India nor Pakistan...Sri Lanka - a country besought by decades worth of terrorism that ripped apart the very foundations of their society & yet they've managed to record enviable scores in every human development index that I know when compared to the rest of us !

And perhaps not even then because India is India, Pakistan is Pakistan & Sri Lanka is Sri Lanka - Our dynamics are extremely different than each other so perhaps learning from each other instead of 'comparing' would be a better word !

 

[Joe Shearer]

The region of North-West and East Bengal were the lost cases, if it was not in 1947 it would have happened later and then we would also have to fight for West Bengal-East Punjab and other Muslim ruled Hindu majority princely states.

This is not at all clear.

Only the western Punjab and eastern Bengal went to Pakistan. Why are you including the entire north-west? That, being an aggregation of Muslim majority colonial provinces and princely states, was a foregone conclusion to go to Pakistan.

Why should we have had to fight - neither west Bengal or east Punjab was slated to go to Pakistan, and neither went to Pakistan.

Other than Hyderabad and Travancore, I can't recall any other Muslim ruled Hindu majority princely state.