Countering high-tech edge of IAF

[313ghazi]

It's no mystery that IAF has an edge on tech and numbers on PAF, but this edge can in part be countered by aquiring different types of tech and employing different tactics.

Specifically I'd like to talk about S-400, SU-30MKI, Rafale.

What are our current options to counter them, what can we develop/deploy/purchase to counter them?

My thoughts

Rafale - we don't have a counter for it yet. If they aquire it, this aircraft with dominate any 1:1 air engagements. We need to purchase a solution, FC-31 is the solution i see.

SU-30MKI - Another great aircraft, IAF have it in good numbers, but it's huge RCS leave it vulnerable to early detection especially as we have AWACS. Could be engaged by F-16, JF-17 armed with SD-10 or AIM-120. They do have a big numerical advantage, but we have a lot of F-16 and JF-17 and it's not like they're going to fly them all over the border at once. Things would be helped if we bought more long range SAM's and any F-16's we can pick up here and there.

S-400 - A great defensive weapon, potentially could keep Indian airspace very safe. The only way around it is to target it. We could use ARM weaponry to target it, but the huge range of S-400 means we'd struggle to get close to it. The key to taking out this weapon will be numbers. It can target 36 threats at a time, number 37 and number 38 get through. It won't be cheap to target it though, whats the cost of 30 missiles which can reach 300km away!

Any better ideas, i'm sure you guys are more clued up than i am.

 

[SirHatesALot]

The whole reason of buying S400 is to increase costs on pakistani tax payer, S400 most likely wont see any action Pakistani front but you still will have invest in countermeasures. the real target is Pakistani treasury

 

[TOPGUN]

This has been talked about a million times plus with the same blah & blah & blah stop wasting thread space guys please go search and read before opening silly threads thanks.

 

[Path-Finder]

The whole reason of buying S400 is to increase costs on pakistani tax payer, S400 most likely wont see any action Pakistani front but you still will have invest in countermeasures. the real target is Pakistani treasury

very high on methane,

 

[SirHatesALot]

very high on methane,

Sorry i dont do drugs or any other chemicals

 

[SQ8]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-plans-after-2001-myths-and-realities.446857/

The whole reason of buying S400 is to increase costs on pakistani tax payer, S400 most likely wont see any action Pakistani front but you still will have invest in countermeasures. the real target is Pakistani treasury

Yet the least costly investment was the countermeasures to it.

 

[Windjammer]

According to the former IAF ACM Anil Yashwant Tipnis,

''The irony is that even the government’s ‘emergency’ acquisition of 36 Rafales is not going to improve the situation. If the Air Force retires the rickety old MiG-27s and the older but refurbished MiG-21 Bisons, as had been planned, even 36 Rafales are not going to help boost the squadron strength. Rued Air Chief Marshal (retd) Anil Yashwant Tipnis, who had led the Air Force during the Kargil war: “We are fighting over the best price for a fighter jet. But we are not paying attention to what is happening in our neighbourhood—in China and Pakistan.”

Pakistan has only 20 fighter squadrons against India’s 31, but those 20 are packs of sinewy flying wolves—upgraded F-16s and brand-new, Chinese-designed JF-17s—against India’s rickety MiG-21s, obsolete MiG-27s, obsolescent Jaguars, a few agile MiG-29s, two squadrons of Mirage-2000s, and 200-odd new Sukhoi-30s. China has 1,700 fighters—including 800 fourth-generation fighters—against India’s 600. Now, with the Rafale deal getting mired in controversies, even the 42 squadrons appear to be a mirage.''

 

[war&peace]

It's no mystery that IAF has an edge on tech and numbers on PAF, but this edge can in part be countered by aquiring different types of tech and employing different tactics.

Specifically I'd like to talk about S-400, SU-30MKI, Rafale.

What are our current options to counter them, what can we develop/deploy/purchase to counter them?

My thoughts

Rafale - we don't have a counter for it yet. If they aquire it, this aircraft with dominate any 1:1 air engagements. We need to purchase a solution, FC-31 is the solution i see.

SU-30MKI - Another great aircraft, IAF have it in good numbers, but it's huge RCS leave it vulnerable to early detection especially as we have AWACS. Could be engaged by F-16, JF-17 armed with SD-10 or AIM-120. They do have a big numerical advantage, but we have a lot of F-16 and JF-17 and it's not like they're going to fly them all over the border at once. Things would be helped if we bought more long range SAM's and any F-16's we can pick up here and there.

S-400 - A great defensive weapon, potentially could keep Indian airspace very safe. The only way around it is to target it. We could use ARM weaponry to target it, but the huge range of S-400 means we'd struggle to get close to it. The key to taking out this weapon will be numbers. It can target 36 threats at a time, number 37 and number 38 get through. It won't be cheap to target it though, whats the cost of 30 missiles which can reach 300km away!

Any better ideas, i'm sure you guys are more clued up than i am.

bhai it has been discussed already quite a few times so it will be better to start searching those threads and try to read...

 

[313ghazi]

ok mods please close this topic, i'll have a read of the old stuff posted.

 

[Lincoln]

It's no mystery that IAF has an edge on tech and numbers on PAF, but this edge can in part be countered by aquiring different types of tech and employing different tactics.

Specifically I'd like to talk about S-400, SU-30MKI, Rafale.

What are our current options to counter them, what can we develop/deploy/purchase to counter them?

My thoughts

Rafale - we don't have a counter for it yet. If they aquire it, this aircraft with dominate any 1:1 air engagements. We need to purchase a solution, FC-31 is the solution i see.

SU-30MKI - Another great aircraft, IAF have it in good numbers, but it's huge RCS leave it vulnerable to early detection especially as we have AWACS. Could be engaged by F-16, JF-17 armed with SD-10 or AIM-120. They do have a big numerical advantage, but we have a lot of F-16 and JF-17 and it's not like they're going to fly them all over the border at once. Things would be helped if we bought more long range SAM's and any F-16's we can pick up here and there.

S-400 - A great defensive weapon, potentially could keep Indian airspace very safe. The only way around it is to target it. We could use ARM weaponry to target it, but the huge range of S-400 means we'd struggle to get close to it. The key to taking out this weapon will be numbers. It can target 36 threats at a time, number 37 and number 38 get through. It won't be cheap to target it though, whats the cost of 30 missiles which can reach 300km away!

Any better ideas, i'm sure you guys are more clued up than i am.

I don't know much about the Rafale except that it's a pretty good 4.5th Generation Fighter Aircraft. Pakistan's counter to this will likely be JF-17 Block III's which have begun rolling out I think. They have better Radar systems, more upgrades and will feature better engines and thrusters too, it is going to be on par with other 4.5 Generation Fighters in the world. The JF-17 Block III's will be faster compared to Rafales while Block II and Block I are on par in compared to speed. I don't know how the manoeuvrability compares though. But only time will tell, although from seeing what kind of upgrades they plan to bring to JF-17 Block III, I think it will be able to compete. Also, side note that JF-17 is designed in way that it can be upgraded very easily in the future as the need arises and better, more advanced components are made, so it is a very feasible aircraft which can be brought on par with time without the need to dump and get a completely new aircraft.

Don't know anything about SU-30MKI, but to note is that F-16 and JF-17 as well perhaps have better manoeuvrability compared to SU-30MKI. So F-16, and JF-17 if it's flying is similar to F-16 as PAF pilots claim, are going to be tough to beat in a dogfight. However, SU-30MKI does have more advanced components although it still lacks AESA radars Russia has been attempting or called for to install back in 2012, I believe. Furthermore, the F-16 and JF-17 have a lower signature radius, so they're pretty evasive. Overall, I would say the main advantage SU-30MKI gets over F-16 and JF-17 would be from range and long-range missiles, however in a visual-range dogfight, I think F-16 and JF-17 would have the edge over the SU-30MKI. Some people also make mention of Thrust Vectoring capability of SU-30MKI, I feel like it doesn't really help a whole lot in a fight, even if it does, it has its disadvantages too, as thrust vectoring causes the aircraft to slow down and the general physics change, will need an experienced pilot to take advantage of it to the fullest.

As for S-400. Not too sure, one of the counters that Pakistan has are MIRV missiles, which Pakistan recently developed in 2017 and successfully tested it, naming the missile Ababeel. These missiles can carry multiple warheads which can detach from their host missile mid air and simultaneously thrust towards their individual targets. So, it sort of tricks an Air Defense system into thinking it's only one missile. Now, how good of a counter it is depends on the stats of S-400, speed of the missile itself, range, velocity of S-400 interceptor missiles, the height at which the MIRV missiles are able to detach and the height the individual warheads are able to retain, the type of missiles an S-400 has in stock (a single S-400 has maximum capability of 48 missiles and 9 launchers) and the type of missile it is loaded with because a single S-400 uses four type of missiles, very-long range, long range, medium range and short range. India is buying 5 battalions of S-400. So, if Pakistan further develops it's MIRV Missile Ababeel and produces more and better variants, it can potentially serve as a counter. Another counter Pakistan has is the Babur Cruise Missile which has a high degree of manoeuvrability including terrain masking to avoid detection by radar and other capabilities giving it a lot of stealth and evasion, so this can also serve as a counter. Potential counters in future, if possible, in my opinion would be ECM-related technology, or jamming in other words. But it's hard to say if Pakistan goes in direction, or what Pakistan is looking at to act as a counter for the S-400, but the future really is ECM warfare if perfected.

Also to note, the S-400 systems are also in service with Algeria and Belarus.

 

[Crypto]

The whole reason of buying S400 is to increase costs on pakistani tax payer, S400 most likely wont see any action Pakistani front but you still will have invest in countermeasures. the real target is Pakistani treasury

Out politicians have been the real threat to our treasury. Pakistan has still kept up adequate deterrence against India.

 

[Imran Khan]

PAF always ignored air defense not hope they will wake up

 

[Vortex]

PAF's job is air defence... so they think they don't need to take care about air defence


Oh hmmm yes confusing and confused mind

On serious note, we lack funds for sure

 

[SirHatesALot]

Out politicians have been the real threat to our treasury. Pakistan has still kept up adequate deterrence against India.

This is not about deterrence, its just introducing new platforms and newer capabilities so that pakistan spends its resources countering its always about imposing costs.

 

[alee92nawaz]

I don't know much about the Rafale except that it's a pretty good 4.5th Generation Fighter Aircraft. Pakistan's counter to this will likely be JF-17 Block III's which have begun rolling out I think. They have better Radar systems, more upgrades and will feature better engines and thrusters too, it is going to be on par with other 4.5 Generation Fighters in the world. The JF-17 Block III's will be faster compared to Rafales while Block II and Block I are on par in compared to speed. I don't know how the manoeuvrability compares though. But only time will tell, although from seeing what kind of upgrades they plan to bring to JF-17 Block III, I think it will be able to compete. Also, side note that JF-17 is designed in way that it can be upgraded very easily in the future as the need arises and better, more advanced components are made, so it is a very feasible aircraft which can be brought on par with time without the need to dump and get a completely new aircraft.

Don't know anything about SU-30MKI, but to note is that F-16 and JF-17 as well perhaps have better manoeuvrability compared to SU-30MKI. So F-16, and JF-17 if it's flying is similar to F-16 as PAF pilots claim, are going to be tough to beat in a dogfight. However, SU-30MKI does have more advanced components although it still lacks AESA radars Russia has been attempting or called for to install back in 2012, I believe. Furthermore, the F-16 and JF-17 have a lower signature radius, so they're pretty evasive. Overall, I would say the main advantage SU-30MKI gets over F-16 and JF-17 would be from range and long-range missiles, however in a visual-range dogfight, I think F-16 and JF-17 would have the edge over the SU-30MKI. Some people also make mention of Thrust Vectoring capability of SU-30MKI, I feel like it doesn't really help a whole lot in a fight, even if it does, it has its disadvantages too, as thrust vectoring causes the aircraft to slow down and the general physics change, will need an experienced pilot to take advantage of it to the fullest.

As for S-400. Not too sure, one of the counters that Pakistan has are MIRV missiles, which Pakistan recently developed in 2017 and successfully tested it, naming the missile Ababeel. These missiles can carry multiple warheads which can detach from their host missile mid air and simultaneously thrust towards their individual targets. So, it sort of tricks an Air Defense system into thinking it's only one missile. Now, how good of a counter it is depends on the stats of S-400, speed of the missile itself, range, velocity of S-400 interceptor missiles, the height at which the MIRV missiles are able to detach and the height the individual warheads are able to retain, the type of missiles an S-400 has in stock (a single S-400 has maximum capability of 48 missiles and 9 launchers) and the type of missile it is loaded with because a single S-400 uses four type of missiles, very-long range, long range, medium range and short range. India is buying 5 battalions of S-400. So, if Pakistan further develops it's MIRV Missile Ababeel and produces more and better variants, it can potentially serve as a counter. Another counter Pakistan has is the Babur Cruise Missile which has a high degree of manoeuvrability including terrain masking to avoid detection by radar and other capabilities giving it a lot of stealth and evasion, so this can also serve as a counter. Potential counters in future, if possible, in my opinion would be ECM-related technology, or jamming in other words. But it's hard to say if Pakistan goes in direction, or what Pakistan is looking at to act as a counter for the S-400, but the future really is ECM warfare if perfected.

Also to note, the S-400 systems are also in service with Algeria and Belarus.

Can we use couple of ababeels with conventional warheads against s400 batteries?