Concept of stealth drones as force multiplayers indo-pak scenario

[HAIDER]

Pakistan company already working for this project for PA.

 

[The Accountant]

Not really , they will have smaller engine , all of then don't need a radar, each drone has its own job, work in a pack , 5 fight groups would cost 50 to 60 mil do the job of 2 squadrons worth of fighters

Brother i agree with you conceptual idea but your cost computations are incorrect ... 10 million dollar machine will not be that effective and if you are talking about kamakaze drones then it is an advance cruise misile ... Your proposal is more applicable for wealthy nations ....

 

[!eon]

 

[Armchair]

Brother the sub.systems you are talking about will make drones even more expensive ... What will you save ? Pilot seat? His oxygen system ...

Rest of the plane and subsystems will remain same plus remote controling sustem will make it more expensive ..

No, drones will not necessarily be more expensive, as they do not need the same shelf-life as manned aircraft. A drone designed to fly to a destination, fire munitions, and return to base, may not even need a radar, just an FLIR. It does not need a strengthened airframe for high g maneuvering, nor an engine that lasts 3000 hours. Nor an airframe that lasts 5000-10000 hours.

A drone with the range of a Mirage 5 would possibly cost somewhere between 3-5 million USD.

@bananarepublic

 

[The Accountant]

No, drones will not necessarily be more expensive, as they do not need the same shelf-life as manned aircraft. A drone designed to fly to a destination, fire munitions, and return to base, may not even need a radar, just an FLIR. It does not need a strengthened airframe for high g maneuvering, nor an engine that lasts 3000 hours. Nor an airframe that lasts 5000-10000 hours.

A drone with the range of a Mirage 5 would possibly cost somewhere between 3-5 million USD.

@bananarepublic

Brother then it cannot replace fighter aircrafts ... Furthermore, without a radar it can only target pre determined ground targets or survillance at max ...

Same job can be done by cruise missile in much more effective way as it is fire and forget system

 

[bananarepublic]

Brother then it cannot replace fighter aircrafts ... Furthermore, without a radar it can only target pre determined ground targets or survillance at max ...

Same job can be done by cruise missile in much more effective way as it is fire and forget system

Why cant it replace fighter aircrafts now a days air to air battles are increasingly becoming only BVR and shoot and scoot .
Thats why i said explicitly stated that they should be interlinked with awacs and other aircrafts.
Cruise missle can only target ground based assets the real threat for Pakistan in the indo-pak scenario is the IAF . the IAF is both numerically and qualitatively superior in terms of its fighter aircraft assets.for point defense of Pakistani soil in case of an indian misadventure the PAF is more than enough to counter the IAF but we should remember that for a better position at the end of war Paf needs to be on the offensive and the conventional assets needed for such an offensive is expensive.
the PAF need to adopt a non conventional aproch against IAF .

 

[Armchair]

Between the strike Mirag-5 Rose do not have a radar... always happy to see strawman arguments. A UCAV can carry a heavier load and is cheaper, as it can return to base and do multiple sorties, compared to a cruise missile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5

For strike the Mirage Rose uses FLIR not radar.

I'm going to stop replying to people who type away big platitudes but can't do basic research or even think about what they are typing. All in an All-knowing manner.

 

[The Accountant]

Between the strike Mirag-5 Rose do not have a radar... always happy to see strawman arguments. A UCAV can carry a heavier load and is cheaper, as it can return to base and do multiple sorties, compared to a cruise missile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5

For strike the Mirage Rose uses FLIR not radar.

I'm going to stop replying to people who type away big platitudes but can't do basic research or even think about what they are typing. All in an All-knowing manner.

That is why mirrages are being used as strike air aircrafts only and not even for interception as they are highly vulnerable due to absence of any modern radar ... If you want to use drones for fighter and air defence role then radar and other sub systems are must and it will not be cheap than ...

Why cant it replace fighter aircrafts now a days air to air battles are increasingly becoming only BVR and shoot and scoot .
Thats why i said explicitly stated that they should be interlinked with awacs and other aircrafts.
Cruise missle can only target ground based assets the real threat for Pakistan in the indo-pak scenario is the IAF . the IAF is both numerically and qualitatively superior in terms of its fighter aircraft assets.for point defense of Pakistani soil in case of an indian misadventure the PAF is more than enough to counter the IAF but we should remember that for a better position at the end of war Paf needs to be on the offensive and the conventional assets needed for such an offensive is expensive.
the PAF need to adopt a non conventional aproch against IAF .

It can replace fighter jets but then it will not remain cheap ... If it has to take role if fighter aircrafts then it requires goodies of fighter aircrafts ...

 

[bananarepublic]

That is why mirrages are being used at strike air aircrafts only and not even for interception as they are highly vulnerabke due to absence of a modern radar ... If you want to use awacs for fighter and air defence role then radar and other sub sustems are must and it will not be cheap than ...


It can replace fighter jets but then it will not remain cheap ... If it has to take role if fighter aircrafts then it requires goodies of fighter aircrafts ...

Actually it requires less, the whole support system for the pilot including the space .
The main things required would be sytems to link it with awacs and other planes .
I don't need to do into details Armchair has a good post about it

a strike UCAV - think of it as a reusable cruise missile that returns to base after launching its payload. at the bare minimum, this is very simple to do. Project Azm includes a UCAV, I wonder if it may be something like this. Would cost a tiny fraction of a manned platform. Read the paper, it explains why. For instance, modern fighter aircraft need long airtime as pilots need to keep practicing. A UCAV does not need the same durability as there is no pilot who needs training on the platform itself. So an F-16 can have a 10000 hour life. A UCAV, being only used during war, only needs a 100 hour life.

Think of it as cost wise something between a strike manned platform and a cruise missile. Just my 0.02. I am sure you'd know better.

Plus it is not intended to replace fighter aircraft but as a force multiplayer for the PAF.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Any drone of this capacity and payload, if imported from abroad, is violation of MTCR. I hope PAF realized this and takes a mature collaboration from a designer to build their own bird.

 

[araz]

Any drone of this capacity and payload, if imported from abroad, is violation of MTCR. I hope PAF realized this and takes a mature collaboration from a designer to build their own bird.

Are the ventures to acquire CH5 a step in that direction? If I remember it was tested and 1 crashed as well while being tested.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Are the ventures to acquire CH5 a step in that direction? If I remember it was tested and 1 crashed as well while being tested.
A

There are many in Pakistan who look at CH5 and want the capability, but a MALE UCAV with this payload is a straight violation of the MTCR, the same level as M9 and M11 acquisition. I have heard that PAF is looking at it, since ACM R Sohail Aman was interested in it, despite announcing a local program. I hope the planners in various headquarters would not want to get Pakistan involved in such an international controversy by buying Chinese MALE UAVs, instead they should build their own or select foreign companies that will build one for them in Pakistan.

 

[khanmubashir]

Brother then it cannot replace fighter aircrafts ... Furthermore, without a radar it can only target pre determined ground targets or survillance at max ...

Same job can be done by cruise missile in much more effective way as it is fire and forget system

For such drones simpler less expensive radars can be used

One way of developing stealth drones is that in project azm first perfect the stealth design flight control system and other capabilities in a small drone version once dynamic been refined make a larger manned aircraft in end would have both a stealth drone and jet form same project

When USA started its f117 and f22 programs the technology demonstrators from the start were smaller maned planes which once fixed the Chink's were developed into bigger fielded versions
but why not start with our r&d with even smaller cheaper drones

 

[Armchair]

Any drone of this capacity and payload, if imported from abroad, is violation of MTCR. I hope PAF realized this and takes a mature collaboration from a designer to build their own bird.

But a CH-5 or similar can't replace a Mirage for a strike role... what about a drone that can. A re-usable cruise missile, so to speak. No one seems to be operating drones in that category.

 

[Trango Towers]

The Swedish are contemplating a UCAV version of th Saab Gripen. I think JF-17 UCAV version will offer PAF number of advantages and should be looked into
http://www.aame.in/2012/08/unmanned-variant-of-swedish-jas-39.html?m=1

The returning f7P can be converted.
Additionally developing our cruise missiles with range and some form of AI to avoid fire from ground and enemy aircraft in the way to the target may actually be enough.
If you fire enough missiles at a target you simply overwhelm the enemy