Coming Together As A Nation

[Cookie Monster]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not asking you to come together with Zardari Altaf. I am asking you to come together with their voters. I hope that we can agree that 68.18 percent of Pakistani voters that didn't vote for PTI are NOT ghadaars? This kneejerk ghadar reaction is not winning anyone over from the PPP PMLN voters to the PTI side. If anything it is alienating them more.

No...u explained urself perfectly fine...and that's exactly what my reply was about.

I refuse to come together with those voters(that are akin to Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq) bcuz they are responsible for harming the country(using their voting power).

 

[PakAlp]

Looking from a different point of view:
Bajwa reply to criticism will be PTI allies MQM, BAP and 20 lotas who IK himself gave tickets to left him. He lost the majority and opposition went for no confidence motion and they had the majority to remove him and the government. They may have been bought but in Pakistan this always happens, people change parties, sell votes etc but the fact is IK lost majority. MQM betrayed PPP so many times before but everytime they meet Zardari they change their minds. BAP were all ex PMLN people and they went back to the old party, 20odd lotas are lotas. JT and AK were close to IK but they had issues for a long time and they stabbed him when they got the chance. We all were against giving tickets to lotas and electables because they would sell themselves and thats exactly what happened.

The question is what is the government supposed to do when their allies and party members leave the party half way because of major differences? Its considered backstabbing but fact is they left the government and now the PM who is selected by the parliament does not hold majority. The opposition will obviously call for NCM and select their own PM with the support of rebels MNAs and new ally parties. Unless the law says they cannot change party and will have to resign for new by elections.

 

[cocomo]

A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this

Selective justice is injustice not whataboutism.

 

[Waterboy]

Sudden opening of the LHC late at night over mere rumors of IK dismissing the COAS, at the behest of a petitioner who is a known Army tout

IK signed the summary for removal of bajwa and appointed faiz as chief.

 

[_Nabil_]

our PM has been sworn into power today, the same day he was due to appear in court on corruption charges. The person heading the case against him has been put on indefinite leave, the judges pushed back his case. The same man was invited to address the Supreme court this week, he appeared, after having spent months dodging the courts complaining of back ache.

From all this mess, I just can't believe, understand how such thing can happen !!!! From potential jail to P.M of a nuclear country !!!

 

[Goritoes]

I think Pakistan should just give the country to USA, let them make bases, spy on China, Drone Afghanistan and KPK, Give Visas to Blackwater Operatives, Jab gulami hi kerni hai tu khul ke karo, Germany/South Koreans/Japan ki tarah, kam se kam country ki condition tu behter ho jye gi.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.







What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.









What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.









My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.







Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.








Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.


The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.









My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.









Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.

It is my policy not to comment on Pakistan's internal affairs, or on Pakistani politics, and this is not an exception.

It is to express deep appreciation of the balanced and thoughtful note on the general situation.

It is to be sincerely hoped that people of sense, goodwill and responsibility in expression and belief will come to the fore at this difficult time.

Best wishes from a democratic, secular Indian.

 

[ziaulislam]

20 years from now if pakistan exist(you cant simply teach the generation to sell eveything/khata hey lagata be hey and expect a state to survive) it will be no different than what it was 30 years ago

Sure the country will have a bigger gdp less poverty but will be more or less the same

One solution which is that people declare nawaz sharif king and maryum nawaz queen

This was legitamize corruption as being okay and hence country will survive

 

[Genghis khan1]

I think Pakistan should just give the country to USA, let them make bases, spy on China, Drone Afghanistan and KPK, Give Visas to Blackwater Operatives, Jab gulami hi kerni hai tu khul ke karo, Germany/South Koreans/Japan ki tarah, kam se kam country ki condition tu behter ho jye gi.

Nhi ho gi. Listed nations are hard workers. Pakistan will end-up like Puerto Rico (neglected poor US territory) or even worst.

 

[Dalit]

Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.







What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.









What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.









My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.







Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.








Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.


The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.









My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.









Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.

The only problem with your entire plea is that Bajwa wasn't neutral. Bajwa colluded with the opposition and external forces to overthrow a sitting government. I am sorry to burst your bubble. The anger and wrath against Bajwa is justified. This will worsen and Bajwa has nowhere to hide. You are obviously trying to minimise the damage, but the damage has been done.

You don't work with political parties that are undemocratic and corrupt. Before Imran Khan took office PML-N was involved in many scandals including the sell out of Pakistan and Kashmir to Modi's Hindustan. Is it any coincidence that Modi lovers endorse PML-N in Pakistan?

Stop selling Pakistan for personal gain. The majority of people including women and youngsters clearly stand with Imran Khan. Old Pakistan will be soon over. People have tasted new Pakistan despite economic hardships and that is the way forward. It is only a matter of time before the opposition starts accusing each other of power grab and the usual bickering. The current setup will fold like a house of cards.

 

[Goritoes]

Nhi ho gi. Listed nations are hard workers. Pakistan will end-up like Puerto Rico (neglected poor US territory) or even worst.

Hum tu Gulami bhi thek se nai ker sakte, never in my life I thought I would say this but, I think I came to US at the right time. Now I am just worried for my family.

 

[Dalit]

IK signed the summary for removal of bajwa and appointed faiz as chief.

Even if he did, in hindsight he did the right thing. Bajwa has proved through his actions that he is dangerous and anti-state. Which COAS visits foreign nations to make deals in order to overthrow his own government? Bajwa does.

Bajwa wants to have good relations with the US and India. He says this openly. Yet, I haven't heard him say on what basis? How can Pakistan have good relations with RSS Hindustan when Kashmir isn't resolved? How can Pakistan have good relations with the US when the latter has ludicrous demands with regards to China? I could go on. When you comprise on your core principles you are defeated.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A valiant effort however , Unity and Freedom are words that have meaning. They are not just fancy words should be thrown around , specially when your Top institutes have committed Serious violation of Public Trust

There are the idealist , and Business and Usual lover in Pakistan , who typically are getting their share of Pie from Budget for them it is , just another day in Broken Pakistan

Majority of Pakistanis who are working class or who live Pay check to Pay check are fed up with this Pakistan designed for Top %5 and 20 Rich families who own factories and Mills and they have stashed a large Empire outside of Pakistan.


Live like Tipu Sultan or Live like Coward Nawaz Bhagora


Globally , every country who are considered Developed , have simple ideologies

1- Honesty
2- Strong , Corruption free Political Office
3- Strong Justice System
4- Military and Police are of course important as well.


When we compare what took place in Pakistan on April 2nd 2022 onward , was not Imran Khan's creation

a) PDM broke the Law by enticing Imran Khan's Political Party members to not vote in his favor
This is constitutionally called illegal , the KALA Coat , refused to accept this rule breaking
They made up their own ruling , refused to review it

b) Then PDM cam about and suggested a Vote of No confidence , again it is illegal as well
because you have broken laws already by talking to Imran Khan's party members

c) Speaker reviewed the situation and Threat letter , rejected the Petition, and President called for new elections


Now until here it is straight forward , But then comes the foreign Hand , as KALA coat brigade stepped up their effort to interfere with Ruling of President

Then they threatened the Members of Government with consequences , which again breaks constitution Of Pakistan


Long Story short Imran Khan is 100% correct

Compromises are not made with Crooks

All other stuff , idealistic Pakistan , lets all hug and kiss ain't working this time around
There is no more room for time waste

• KALA Coat Dalal's need to go
• All 5 of them need to get their English test done they can't read their own constitution
• Politics has no room for working with Criminals and Crooks
• KALA coats are first grade Dalals they committed treason

No Remittance till Elections are held
There will be no Business as Usual

Hold Elections in 90 Days



If People are scared of Donald Lu , just retire and put someone capable in charge
Being scared does not mean you put Crooks in charge of all Civilian positions

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

**The fundamental thing I note about Pakistani people is they love their "Business as Usual" in Pakistan

Their first statement is , let us forget it all and smile and put it under carpet

Oh "Yeah to hota rahta hai" mindset
That , mindset is not going work anymore


If Pakistan is a country built for 20 Khandan , families , just rename it to
20 Khandan/families of Pakistan

Or Hold elections as Announced by President of Pakistan on April 2


Showbaz Beggar is not my Prime Minister

 

[Dalit]

**The fundamental thing I note about Pakistani people is they love their "Business as Usual" in Pakistan

Oh "Yeah to hota rahta hai" mindset


That , mindset is not going work anymore

This is to be expected. These people realise the damage. It is colossal. They have turned a sizable portion of Pakistani society against them. I would also be worried. You will read a lot about healing and moving forward. There is no moving forward. Not with the current lot.