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COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership

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COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership
Friday, December 24, 2010

The following column, exclusive to Livefist, is by a senior IAF officer, who for obvious reasons, cannot be named. I sought his views on the FGFA agreement and have with a measure of effort persuaded him to give Livefist his views on the programme in how own words. The following piece is the result. The views here are his own, and written in his capacity as an officer of the Indian Air Force. As a matter of detail, he has permitted me to mention here that he is a fighter pilot who has been involved in two major Indo-Russian aircraft programmes in the 1990s. He has also permitted me to proofread his piece but only for purposes of clarity and continuity. His piece, in full:

At the outset, it should be clear to all concerned, especially the Indian taxpayer, that this "mother of all aircraft programmes", i.e. the agreement between India and Russia to jointly develop and manufacture an advanced fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will deliver a formidable combat platform. While all development projects have their attendant hurdles, delays and overruns, we as a nation must be sure that the end result meets all performance parameters. As of now, there is no reason to believe that there will be any undue problems in the programme.

However, it is the idea that the FGFA is a "joint design and development programme" that is troubling to many in the IAF who have dealt with all parties concerned, i.e. Hindustan Aeronautics, Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB), UAC and ROE. Before proceeding to the ground realities, let us first understand what the FGFA is being projected to offer India over and above the material delivery of a combat platform. It is being projected as a partnership between India and Russia, where both sides will co-design, co-develop, co-engineer and co-manufacture the aircraft. The idea is also that in the course of the programme, HAL's design inputs to the FGFA will spin-off and accrue into an indigenous capability to build next generation combat platforms using strictly in-house resources. There are several other projected benefits of the programme, but these two will suffice for the purpose of this article.

Currently, the SDB has designed three prototypes (1 flying, 2 ground testbed platforms) which are of single cockpit (i.e. T-50) configuration. The idea of the preliminary design contract signed on December 21 is that HAL will be the design partner for the twin-seat variant of the aircraft. Some facts: The fact that the Russians are now testing the single-seat T-50/PAK FA does not mean that they do not have the necessary design data to fabricate a twin-seat/trainer platform. In fact, is just the opposite. Remember that the PAK FA programme was initiated in the late 1980s, which means the standard approach of the time was to build aircraft along with a mandatory trainer variant for conversion trg as well as squadron service, as has been the standard practice with Soviet aircraft engineering. Furthermore, it is a known fact in the IAF that the SDB has, in a layperson's terms, a blueprint to fabricate a twin-seat version of the T-50. If so, then the purported design being offered from India's side are worth pausing to think about. What are these design inputs? Are they really design inputs?

Since 2006, ever since HAL had expressed its keenness to co-implement the IAF's custom specifications in the new platform, there has been a debate between the definition of design input and specification/modification input. Let us be clear that the T-50 prototype that is currently flying is the work of years of design engineers from one of the most skilled design bureaus of the former Soviet. This is not suggest that HAL does not have any design strengths, but merely to say that in this particular programme, the space for any inputs simply does not exist. In simple words, even if HAL is partnering in the twin-seat version, their job will involve no/negligible inputs as far as airframe is concerned. A common perception that needs to be corrected is that adding Indian avionics, BEL radar receiver, DRDO weapon systems or composite control surface elements constitutes "design input". It does not. That falls in the realm of custom modification which is basically what IAF/HAL had undertaken with the Su-30 programme in late 1990s. However, in all fairness it must be said that the scope for composites in the airframe holds some innovative possibilities from Indian laboratories. Be that as it may, the design of the platform will not be changed.

When the preliminary design of the T-50 was frozen some years ago, the IAF provided requested inputs on platform preference. Our inputs basically fell in four categories, i.e. two-pilot configuration, custom sensors/avionics, options for turbofan engine and weapon systems. Additionally, the IAF was of the view that it would be desirable to have a lower empty weight, a parameter which would to some degree be met with composites, and for which work has already begun by SDB. While the IAF team tasked with studying the platform/programme proposal was quite satisfied with the basic design, the above four parameters were crucial for our own future operations and perspective planning. The requirements were duly endorsed at all levels and met with the concurrence of HAL engineers. As far as the IAF is concerned, HAL will not be a design partner in the FGFA programme. For IAF purposes in the project, HAL is a integration/workshare partner that will co-inspect the joint modification study and execute in conjunction with SDB/Irkut/ROE. None of these areas justify the prestigious title of "design and development partner".

Finally, the FGFA will be a very competitive platform for IAF, and its first stealth aircraft. And India's involvement even at this late stage in the programme is still desirable to just being a customer like in the case of all other platforms barring Su-30 (though in the last also, contribution has not helped us keep cost down). There should be no doubts about the platform itself.

But to project this as an landmark project that has created history with great dividends for India is too far fetched. HAL is our partner at the best and worst of times. And it is important to remember that the way the FGFA programme is being projected today is as much the play of the Russian side as it is for sections within the Indian defence setup. The Russians have been reliable friends for decades, but it would be imprudent to imagine that there is any element of philanthropy in their dealings with India. If communications between IAF and ROE were ever declassified (like the Wikileaks, maybe some day!), the nation would have quite a different picture of how it is to deal with the Russians. Still, that does not take away from the value of their partnership. Ultimately, the FGFA programme, in my view, is no different from most of the other so-called joint programmes we have with Russia, including the Su-30 MKI.

To conclude, a few questions which are worth considering: As a "joint D&D partner", will HAL be able to devlop and deliver India's next generation fighter aircraft all by itself? Is India's involvement in the FGFA programme simply as a monetary investor?

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership

Courtesy : Livefist
 
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FGFA is just a degree up in terms of buy/seller relation b/w india-russia...

india spanding $2.5bn to get copy rights to build and sell this aircraft from own soil is itself a achivment..

as far as nation pride is consern , indians should reserve it for MCA..
 
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Mh..., again one of this unnamed sources of livefist and actually the report doesn't tell us anything that wasn't clear before. It would have been more interesting to know about possible capabilities of the fighter, how IAF sees it's stealth capabilities compared to other 5.gen fighters and what the benefit for us will be from exports..., but all these issues are not even vaguely answered.



as far as nation pride is consern , indians should reserve it for MCA..

:hitwall: As far as it concerns the security of our nation, we must forget pride and get the most capable arms and techs, that can defend our country!
 
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I dont find this report least bit revealing , the supposedly IAF person has projected the concern and the mild disbelief that force has towards HAL , DRDO etc.

on the whole i really dont care if we beg, borrow, steal but the important thing is to have fgfa in our hands to maintain atleast the theoretical air superiority over our adversaries.
 
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Report looks ok. But what we get is copyright and TOT. That would help in future programs. It's not easy to jump from second generation to forth generation and than fifth. Till we are able to manufature fifth generation, USA will have sixth generation. But we would be able to reduce gap by three generation at least.
 
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Interesting factor I read in this article that your government was keen since 2006 and only now it has been able to officially initiate the programme. Four years is a considerable delay, considering that the very beginning is so slow.

Is this due to excess bureaucracy?
 
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I dont find this report least bit revealing , the supposedly IAF person has projected the concern and the mild disbelief that force has towards HAL , DRDO etc.

on the whole i really dont care if we beg, borrow, steal but the important thing is to have fgfa in our hands to maintain atleast the theoretical air superiority over our adversaries.

Exactly, the FGFA will be a very important and capable fighter for Indian forces to get an edge over their opponents again. That's why it would be good to concentrate on it and possibly get western techs, or weapons through MMRCA too.


Interesting factor I read in this article that your government was keen since 2006 and only now it has been able to officially initiate the programme. Four years is a considerable delay, considering that the very beginning is so slow.

Is this due to excess bureaucracy?

It might not have to do with India, but more with Russia an the firstflight of the T50 prototype. I guess Indian forces wanted to see what they could get, before they seal the deal.
 
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live fist at its worst . creating propaganda ,. its high time the site should not be taken as a reliable source of news .
 
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As far as i am concerned this FGFA is no different to the SU30MKI project ie a customised Fighter of Russian origin taylored to Indian needs license built in india.

It also no different to the Thunder programme between China * Pakistan.
 
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I think many of you will agree with me
@ Parashuram1
Interesting factor I read in this article that your government was keen since 2006 and only now it has been able to officially initiate the programme. Four years is a considerable delay, considering that the very beginning is so slow.

Is this due to excess bureaucracy?
It has nothing to do with that. This happened because of the complications of the deal. Just tell me which govt. has such kind of privilege ??

US is selling a lot of F35 to many nations. As per my knowledge there were many partners in the project who even supported the project monetarily but what they get ?
Only the fighter nothing else.

In my opinion it is a landmark deal. Deal of this kind needs time. There were many rounds of discussions before the deal was finally signed.

Apart from this 2-3 years India-Russia witnessed a little bit of drift in their relationship because of India's growing closeness to US, this also delayed the project.

Many people say that Russia won't give important technology related to T50 to India but here is thing which counter this point.
India, Russia ink agreement to share GLONASS signals - Brahmand.com
Just tell me where you can see this kind of co operation between two countries. This agreement was also a landmark agreement. Let me assure you that military use of GPS by a second country won't be allowed by any country but Russia is ready to give India the access to GLONASS for military use.
If this agreement is possible then why not PakFa one.

I agree not many changes can be made in the design of Indian FGFA but this was not why India is paying 250 million $. That deal's sole purpose was that Indias HAL can understand how to work on the design of a fifth generation fighter, so that we could develop our own.

I even heard HAL is in talk with UAC to get knowledge about stealth technology for its AMCA project. It might be possible that this deal might be just to divert everybody attention while Russia would help India to develop its own technology for its own fifth gen like Russia helped India for Arihant Subs.(Although its just a speculation but it might be right.)

@ Storm Force
As far as i am concerned this FGFA is no different to the SU30MKI project ie a customised Fighter of Russian origin taylored to Indian needs license built in india.
Right now you can say that FGFA is Su30 mki advanced version.

No, its not like that project. Its more like Indo-Russia Brahmos JV. Its not like SU30 mki in which India developed systems and avionics as well as used French and Israeli subsystems.

Here India will develop these systems which would be much advanced than these systems and these systems will be used in Russian version also. Russians also accepted in SU30 project that Indian systems and avionics where better than theirs and thats why they even asked India about this.
 
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Interesting factor I read in this article that your government was keen since 2006 and only now it has been able to officially initiate the programme. Four years is a considerable delay, considering that the very beginning is so slow.

Is this due to excess bureaucracy?

Nope, no delays. In 2006, Russia was still developing the PAK-FA
The PAK-FA design was completed only in 2009, and we signed the deal in 2010.
This news means two things
(1) The Su-30MKI took 8 years, beginning from 90s. Today the budget is higher, capability is better, hence it make go quite fast
(2) There will be at least 50 PAK-FAs in 2017
(3) There will be over 100 5th generation fighters in IAF before the end of next decade.
 
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There will be at least 50 PAK-FAs in 2017
Here is query, i have read alot on this forum that India will get 40-50 PakFa(not FGFA) first, by 2017. But I haven't seen any official report stating that India is going to purchase 40-50 PakFa in the beginning. Please post some report if you got.
Nope, no delays. In 2006, Russia was still developing the PAK-FA
The PAK-FA design was completed only in 2009, and we signed the deal in 2010.
No, he was right delays where made because deal was too complecated and required many rounds of talks. Also we had a couple of rocky years in our relationship with Russia because of our closeness to US. But now everything is fine.
 
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well pak fa will be a strong point for IAF but we also work on MCA

time has come when we have to make ourslef independent
 
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I don't agree to this post.... second thing is we don't have any other option or do we ?

The WAR theater is changing rapidly...If people think that we should not go for FGFA then instead of MCA we should concentrate more on space technology and navigation and communication system.

Still important msg from border area are not sent secured and quick.

What the use of weapon if we don't use it in correct time.
 
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I don't agree to this post.... second thing is we don't have any other option or do we ?

The WAR theater is changing rapidly...If people think that we should not go for FGFA then instead of MCA we should concentrate more on space technology and navigation and communication system.

Still important msg from border area are not sent secured and quick.

What the use of weapon if we don't use it in correct time.

We do have other options:

- beeing a simple export customer of F35, at high costs, with high restrictions and operational limitations for IAF, because it can't be customised to Indian needs, nor does it fulfill basic requirements that IAF seems to have (twin seat config for long range and high endurance missions, good flight performance, the advantage of using Brahmos)

- developing AMCA alone, which needs clearly more time for development (aimed around 2022-25), which means we PLAAFs edge will even increase and not countered, because they will have a 5. gen fighter before. And the risk of further delays are even bigger, because it highly depends on the succsess of LCA MK2, which is not developed yet, let alone the missing knowledge of NG design and techs.


So the question is not if we have options, but if these options can be a better alternative to FGFA and I think the answer should be clear.
 
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