Coercion Sabotage Or Incompetence :---

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think there is a strong realisation within army that in such scenario PAF will be stretched too thin and this is why i think systems like FM-90 and LY-80 are inducted by the army and not airforce. While LY-80 is to provide SAM coverage to strategic assets FM-90 IMO will be to provide cover to forward army formations.
Having said so this still does not constitute for a decent air cover provided by PAF which unfortunately will not be there since apart from F-16s, all other platforms are short legged including JF-17. With CFT range can be extended but than it will be at the cost of payload and this is where a twin engine fighter comes in the scenario. Its not about standoff weapons only IMO, a twin engine plane has enough payload to deliver on enemy areas and than fight its way out with A2A weapons and does not need escort while planes like JF-17 or Mirages will need escorts, meaning more assets will be deployed for counter attack on Indian targets since none of PAF planes can carry sufficient A2A and A2G weaponry compared to Indian MKI and future Rafale.
PS no disrespect meant to Sir @Bilal Khan 777 or any other veteran. I have great respect for your reviews. Just sharing an opinion.

To be fair, there are ways to pair stand-off range weapons to close air support. A great example I think is that of the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon. If you have intel about the Army nearing an enemy armoured formation, you can send the JF-17s up to fire dispensers at stand-off range. You will need guided sub-munitions and a carrier akin to JSOW (e.g. Chinese GB6) to properly pull it off, but it can be done, and it would have an effect.

The problem is the need for offensive air-interdiction, so as to prevent enemy fighters from attacking your armour, and for that a medium-weight fighter is required. I feel the PAF is basically hinging that on the F-16. If you can grow the fleet to a healthy number and ensure you have enough spare parts to keep them running for enough time at full use, then they have a shot. But I don't think they can take the F-16 stuff for granted, just refer to the drama in 2016 and the 1990s before it.

 

[IceCold]

The problem is the need for offensive air-interdiction, so as to prevent enemy fighters from attacking your armour, and for that a medium-weight fighter is required. I feel the PAF is basically hinging that on the F-16. If you can grow the fleet to a healthy number and ensure you have enough spare parts to keep them running for enough time at full use, then they have a shot. But I don't think they can take the F-16 stuff for granted, just refer to the drama in 2016 and the 1990s before it.

Agreed IAF cannot take F-16s for granted and i dont think they do but again as you mentioned trick lies in numbers along with spares. My and others like me, our contention is with the fact that we have neither. We dont have F-16s in numbers specially block-52. Only a handful of them and there is no surety that we can get more. The recent example of US backing out and asking PAF to pay in full is one such example. Yet PAF insists on relying on a plane that they cannot procure more, cannot be upgraded to future blocks like block 70 standards offered to IAF and further more due to US restrictions spares will always be an issue once Uncle SAM pulls the plug. F-16 is a great plane but comes with a baggage where as we should had be moving towards something that can come with no strings attached and PAF is allowed all upgrades that will come down the line like J-10 or J-16. The latter will also provided PAF the much needed teeth to hit deep Inside Indian territory without relying on strategic weapons.

 

[Ultima Thule]

India leased Russian nuke subs

But this was SSGN bro, i am talking about SSBN as @Narendra Trump said

 

[Trango Towers]

Bhai sahib the world has moved lot further, it's not 80s and 90s anymore, this is a 21st century, PAF can't make people fool anymore with all the old shit about pilot skills. What the eff pilot s supposed to do if adversary is adding the best from right left and centre. No matter how patriotic and bigger fan of PAF I am, I just can't can't ignore the reality.

We had the qualitatively advantage in the past but we have already lost it and lost it miserably.

Respectfully, if you all know so much about PAF and are such experts WhY are you sitting at home making judgements whilst the airfare that you criticise is defending your daughters mother's and son.
I for one am very happy that instead of buying sanction prone toys they air force had the foresight to invest in jf17. A very capable aircraft that has not only enabled us to develop technology and resources to have an independent deterrent but be self sufficient.
If PAF is so weak why hasn't India challenged us in the sky?

 

[IceCold]

Respectfully, if you all know so much about PAF and are such experts WhY are you sitting at home making judgements whilst the airfare that you criticise is defending your daughters mother's and son.

Bhai jaan we are not giving any judgements just presenting a counter argument. Since this a defense forum after all no? Also i think we need to shed this moral high horse type attitude because everybody including men in Uniform make mistakes since this is a human nature but whats important is the fact that people realise that a mistake was made and we need to move past that.
We are all Pakistanis and want best for our mother land and for our armed forces. The lives of our pilots are not cheap. They are the best and they deserve to be in the best. There is no need to get defensive all the time.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Agreed IAF cannot take F-16s for granted and i dont think they do but again as you mentioned trick lies in numbers along with spares. My and others like me, our contention is with the fact that we have neither. We dont have F-16s in numbers specially block-52. Only a handful of them and there is no surety that we can get more. The recent example of US backing out and asking PAF to pay in full is one such example. Yet PAF insists on relying on a plane that they cannot procure more, cannot be upgraded to future blocks like block 70 standards offered to IAF and further more due to US restrictions spares will always be an issue once Uncle SAM pulls the plug. F-16 is a great plane but comes with a baggage where as we should had be moving towards something that can come with no strings attached and PAF is allowed all upgrades that will come down the line like J-10 or J-16. The latter will also provided PAF the much needed teeth to hit deep Inside Indian territory without relying on strategic weapons.

To be fair the J-10 was on the cards. They were to buy 36 of them and a series of factors, e.g. IMF, Zardari, FATA, etc, scuttled the route. However, it seems the PAF really wants to scale the Block-52+ infrastructure and induct more of that type. Besides requesting new planes from the U.S., we didn't even hear of PAF efforts towards used F-16s. I assumed there was interest in those airframes, but I'm now leaning towards the notion that this wasn't the case at all; they want to add more new-built Block-52+. Yes, spare parts are an issue, but strength in numbers is a virtue in that it makes domestic MRO infrastructure more affordable, and the average cost of F-16 spare parts (for stockpiling) will likely be less than any other Western fighter or some newer Eastern fighters (e.g. Su-35).

Bhai jaan we are not giving any judgements just presenting a counter argument. Since this a defense forum after all no? Also i think we need to shed this moral high horse type attitude because everybody including men in Uniform make mistakes since this is a human nature but whats important is the fact that people realise that a mistake was made and we need to move past that.
We are all Pakistanis and want best for our mother land and for our armed forces. The lives of our pilots are not cheap. They are the best and they deserve to be in the best. There is no need to get defensive all the time.

Ditto. Moreover, we're not going after individual PAF people (MastanKhan notwithstanding), but are accounting an institution built upon public funds.

 

[salman-1]

The more we lein towards USA for F-16 the more it's difficult to acquire that beast, if we just buy a chine frontline fighter in J series (just 36 or more)the more it would be easier for us to acquire F-16s, USA will definitely offer us to divert again our $ towards them, it will both comfort in long term for us, as we would have an alternate to procure with already established infrastructure and training.

 

[Avicenna]

To be fair the J-10 was on the cards. They were to buy 36 of them and a series of factors, e.g. IMF, Zardari, FATA, etc, scuttled the route. However, it seems the PAF really wants to scale the Block-52+ infrastructure and induct more of that type. Besides requesting new planes from the U.S., we didn't even hear of PAF efforts towards used F-16s. I assumed there was interest in those airframes, but I'm now leaning towards the notion that this wasn't the case at all; they want to add more new-built Block-52+. Yes, spare parts are an issue, but strength in numbers is a virtue in that it makes domestic MRO infrastructure more affordable, and the average cost of F-16 spare parts (for stockpiling) will likely be less than any other Western fighter or some newer Eastern fighters (e.g. Su-35).


Ditto. Moreover, we're not going after individual PAF people (MastanKhan notwithstanding), but are accounting an institution built upon public funds.

I wonder if PAF is moving on from the generalized practice of acquiring surplus f-16s around the world which may have included mlu'd A/B to a block 52 and compatible platform specific goal. keep in mind there's a HUGE pool of block 30/32 and above examples worldwide. And many are in countries friendly to Pakistan. Turkey and Egypt alone have over 400 examples. Perhaps the plan is to ideally get more new build block 52 if economically prudent and the buy up older block 32 or 42 or even 52 and then eventually upgrade them to the same standard (block 52) or even the V model if the requisite components are released by the US. This to me would be a very cost effective model.

The downside is however, PAF is obviously vulnerable to the whims of the west I.e. Threat of sanctions etc etc. for fleet support. however I would think at this point, PAF has developed plans to get around this such as surplus supplies for maintance. Also perhaps the grab for 500 aamrams with the first block 52 deal was evidence of this.

In any case, the fact that so many examples of relatively late model f-16s exist is a resource to the PAF as these eventually come off line in their current air forces. I can envision PAF picking up used Turkish, Egyptian or former GCC examples eventually.

Perhaps this is why, in prelude to this, the PAF is trying to bridge the gap with more new build block 52s.

Also please keep in mind the F-16 issue, whatever direction PAF takes is only for present and near to mid term purposes.

In my opinion, the proposed "off the shelf" 5th gen platform buy is for mid to long term purposes and is as stated a stop gap measure.

The true solution, and where I hope and pray this is a successful endeavor, is Kamra Aviation City. True and full indiginization at the grassroots level is the ultimate break from the shackles of reliance on the west and others for that matter.

This to me is the ultimate evidence that PAF isn't just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Airdef95]

raw agent ! Or whatever it is ----- you talk about credibility ? Well, there isn't any left to begin with

So have you started finding someplace with better defense forces... some place where you'll be safe?

 

[Trango Towers]

Bhai jaan we are not giving any judgements just presenting a counter argument. Since this a defense forum after all no? Also i think we need to shed this moral high horse type attitude because everybody including men in Uniform make mistakes since this is a human nature but whats important is the fact that people realise that a mistake was made and we need to move past that.
We are all Pakistanis and want best for our mother land and for our armed forces. The lives of our pilots are not cheap. They are the best and they deserve to be in the best. There is no need to get defensive all the time.

My dear brother. I agree with you from a purely analytical point. However I have read posts here from.people who do not live in pakistan and pass judgements whilst referring to Pakistan in the negative. Trust me when I tell you the Air force is in good hands and yes you are correct it could be even better as one never stops evolving. But in terms of our immediate threat from our unfortunate neighbour we are in a very happy position.

 

[Mentee]

But this was SSGN bro, i am talking about SSBN as @Narendra Trump said

mate I was trolling you

So have you started finding someplace with better defense forces... some place where you'll be safe?

not yet but if another longewala, Atlantique , Slala or Abbotabad incident happened , I might reconsider my decision.

 

[MastanKhan]

see , your whole narrative is based on being defensive . Thank you for making a dent in the nation's aggressive psyche . Vo ay gy to hm chup k maray gy or chupay rhy gy jb tk vo bhaag nae jaaty. Ku k hm bohat achay bachay Hain ---

As for the Stand off weapons , they dont work for too long when the enemy is smashing you step by step with you having a lil access to enemy's crystal balls due to their intensive Sam coverage. And we don't even have a decent Sam network, that too with reference to numbers ---


suppose , Pakistan army's strike formations begin to roll into the enemy territory , is there any guarantee that our soldiers won't end up in a situation like what happened in longewala ? I mean if paf is busy in repelling that first and second wave of the enemy assault, who'd provide air cover to our advancing soldiers ?

Hi,

You must realize that these honest---sincere---hard working---pakistan loving---giving their life for the country---are the real enemies of pakistan---because they cannot comprehend the level of threat they are facing---.

Because they believe that their truthfulness---their life giving sacrifice for the nation---will overcome all the superiorities that the enemy has---.

And in their confirmation of that loyalty---and self belief---their zeal grows deeper and deeper where they breathe those euphoric perfumes of eternal glory and grandeuer---.

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan has survived this long without the armchair commanders on PDF. It will continue to exist.

 

[The Eagle]

We must be careful with our words while addressing others that must not resort to such behaviour where none takes it serious nor attend it respectfully. Kindly maintain civility & manners and treat each other with respect same as like we expect from others.

Regards,

 

[Mentee]

Pakistan has survived this long without the armchair commanders on PDF. It will continue to exist.

survival is for the weak ! We want our Country to thrive. But with this mindset---------
Edit: Btw, Are you sure about your statement ?