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Climate killed Harappan civilization

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Climate change led to the collapse of the ancient Indus civilization more than 4,000 years ago, archaeologists believe.
The Indus civilization was the largest - but least known - of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia.
The empire stretched over more than a million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan.
Now for the first time scientists believe they have discovered that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the civilisation.

The study also resolves a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the Sarasvati, the sacred river of Hindu mythology, the authors believe.
Dr Liviu Giosan, a geologist with Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) and lead author of the study, said: 'We reconstructed the dynamic landscape of the plain where the Indus civilization developed 5200 years ago, built its cities, and slowly disintegrated between 3900 and 3000 years ago.
'Until now, speculations abounded about the links between this mysterious ancient culture and its life-giving mighty rivers.'
Like their contemporaries, the Harappans, who may have made up 10 per cent of the world's population, the group lived next to rivers, owing their livelihoods to the fertility of annually watered lands.
But the remains of their settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river.
The civilisation was forgotten until the 1920s. But since then, a flurry of research has uncovered a sophisticated urban culture with myriad internal trade routes and well-established sea links with Mesopotamia,
Archaeologists have also discovered building constructions, sanitation systems, arts and crafts, and a yet-to-be deciphered writing system.
Over five years an international team has been combining satellite photos and topographic data to make digital maps of landforms constructed by the Indus and neighboring rivers, which were then probed in the field by drilling, coring, and even manually-dug trenches and samples were tested.
Co-author Dorian Fuller, an archaeologist with University College London, said: 'Once we had this new information on the geological history, we could re-examine what we know about settlements, what crops people were planting and when, and how both agriculture and settlement patterns changed.


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This brought new insights into the process of eastward population shift, the change towards many more small farming communities, and the decline of cities during late Harappan times.'
The study suggests the decline in monsoon rains led to weakened river dynamics, and played a critical role both in the development and the collapse of the Harappan culture, which relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses.

The research provides a picture of 10,000 years of changing landscapes and the researchers identified a striking mounded plain, 10 to 20 meters high, over 100 kilometers wide, and running almost 1000 kilometers along the Indus, they call the 'Indus mega-ridge,' built by the river as it purged itself of sediment along its lower course.
'The Harappans were an enterprising people taking advantage of a window of opportunity - a kind of 'Goldilocks civilization,' said Dr Giosan.


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Shows the extent of harappan civilisation

'As monsoon drying subdued devastating floods, the land nearby the rivers - still fed with water and rich silt - was just right for agriculture. This lasted for almost 2,000 years, but continued aridification closed this favorable window in the end.'
The researchers believe they have uncovered the fate of a mythical river, the Sarasvati, described in The Vedas, ancient Indian scriptures composed in Sanskrit over 3000 years ago, which it is believed was fed by perennial glaciers in the Himalayas.
Today, the Ghaggar, an intermittent river that flows only during strong monsoons and dissipates into the desert along the dried course of Hakra valley, is thought to best approximate the location of the mythic Sarasvati, but its Himalayan origin and whether it was active during Vedic times remain controversial.

By 3900 years ago, their rivers drying, the Harappans had an escape route to the east toward the Ganges basin, where monsoon rains remained reliable.
'We can envision that this eastern shift involved a change to more localised forms of economy: smaller communities supported by local rain-fed farming and dwindling streams,' said Dr Fuller.
'This may have produced smaller surpluses, and would not have supported large cities, but would have been reliable.
'Cities collapsed, but smaller agricultural communities were sustainable and flourished. Many of the urban arts, such as writing, faded away, but agriculture continued and actually diversified.'
Dr Giosan added: 'An amazing amount of archaeological work has been accumulating over the last decades, but it's never been linked properly to the evolution of the fluvial landscape. We now see landscape dynamics as the crucial link between climate change and people.
'Today the Indus system feeds the largest irrigation scheme in the world, immobilizing the river in channels and behind dams. If the monsoon were to increase in a warming world, as some predict, catastrophic floods such as the humanitarian disaster of 2010, would turn the current irrigation system, designed for a tamer river, obsolete.'


Climate change wiped out one of the world's first, great civilisations more than 4,000 years ago | Mail Online

WASHINGTON: Climate change may be the main culprit behind the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization around 4,000 years ago, says a new study, which also claims to have resolved the long-standing debate over the source and fate of the Saraswati, a sacred river in Hindu mythology.

The study, combining the latest archaeological data along with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies, suggested that decline in monsoon rains led to weakened river dynamics, and played a critical role both in the development and the fall of the Harappan culture, which relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses. The international team, which published their findings in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences , used satellite photos and topographic data to make and analyse digital maps of landforms constructed by the Indus and other neighbouring rivers, which were then probed in the field by drilling, coring, and even manuallydug trenches. Collected samples were used to determine the sediments' origins, whether brought in by rivers or wind, and their age, in order to develop a chronology of landscape changes.

We reconstructed the dynamic landscape of the plain where the Indus civilization developed 5,200 years ago, built its cities, and disintegrated between 3,900 and 3,000 years ago," said lead researcher Liviu Giosan, a geologist with Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in the US. "Our study suggests that the decline in monsoon rains led to weakened river dynamics , and played a key role both in development and the fall of Harappan culture," he said.
The research, which was conducted between 2003 and 2008, also claimed that the mythical Saraswati river was actually not fed by glaciers in the Himalayas as believed. Rather, it was a perennial monsoon-supported watercourse and aridification reduced it to short seasonal flows, the researchers said.

?Climate killed Harappan civilization' - Times Of India

Eastward migration of monsoons created, then killed the Harappan civilization in Indus valley. - latimes.com
 
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Harappan used to speak ancient tamil language i read somewhere. can anybody give some info plz? bcz this can stop lots of frustrating arguements.
 
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Harappan used to speak ancient tamil language i read somewhere. can anybody give some info plz? bcz this can stop lots of frustrating arguements.

The script is yet to be deciphered...
But yes, that tamil theory is still debated and is a dominant theory... Cos the symbols found there, are compatible with the culture of Tamils to some extent...

Ur history??????? General mushraf as born in India but he is not a Indian same with the civilization presently its under pakistan but it is a civilization build by Indian upper caste Hindus. Before u will ask why upper caste, let me answer it.

People blame Hindus of caste system and suppressing lower caste....................... so its obvious that the lower caste don't have the education, money and the capacity to build any thing forget about a whole civilization.

Later lower caste get converted into Buddhism/Jainism and later on into Islam.
:wave:

I think there is no need to reply to trolls..
 
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'We can envision that this eastern shift involved a change to more localised forms of economy: smaller communities supported by local rain-fed farming and dwindling streams,' said Dr Fuller.

'This may have produced smaller surpluses, and would not have supported large cities, but would have been reliable.

'Cities collapsed, but smaller agricultural communities were sustainable and flourished. Many of the urban arts, such as writing, faded away, but agriculture continued and actually diversified.'

That would suggest, from a 'religio-cultural' perspective, that the civilization essentially ended.

It also suggests that indigenous population of the time did remain in the same region as well, albeit in smaller communities, with parts of the population migrating East.
 
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Why do we have to even discuss this again n again..... IVC has been linked to DRAVIDIANS more than anyone.....from script,religion and phenotype...... this is what the "ACTUAL HISTORIANS " believe unless ""FEW" ppl rewrite history again.... indian brothers drop all these discussions.... it is WORTHLESS
 
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Harappan used to speak ancient tamil language i read somewhere. can anybody give some info plz? bcz this can stop lots of frustrating arguements.


They were Dravidians, so I'm guessing there would be some affinity to the Tamil Language.
 
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I speculated two days ago that climate change was the reason for desertification and destruction of the ancient civilisations. We need to do something before this effects our people today. Our forest cover is only 5%, We desperately need to get this up to 30%.
 
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This is nonsense being peddled as science. These river based civilizations relied on gravity irrigation and the annual flood would deposit silt to enrich the soil. The Indus River has a catchment area that extends to Tibet where melting glaciers provide the initial flow of the river.

All the major sites are in Pakistan. The most important are Mohenjo Daro, which is in Sindh and is only 0.3 miles from the Indus River. Harappa is in Pakistani Punjab not too far from modern Sahiwal. Harappa is about 5 miles south of the present course of Ravi. These two sites are the heart of the IVC, so much so that their names are used to name periods or give value to other 'sites'

A brick can be found in India. Nobody will take notice but then add the suffix Harappan and everybody is suddenly buzzing. What I am waiting for is a explanation of how Harappa or Mohenjo Daro got effected by this climate change. Are Giosan et al suggesting that all of the Indus River system dried up? Did the mighty Indus also dry up? Ditto Jhelum, Chenab, Ravi, Beas? That seems highly unlikely.

I know that Hakra dried up, even today most of it is just a dry riverbed but that is of no consequence to the IVC in Pakistan. Another thing that is obvious is how the report misinforms. The lionshare of IVC is in Pakistan. There is a reason why it is called Indus Valley Civilization. Because most of it is in the Indus Valley. Most of the Indus Valley is in Pakistan. The peripheral zone extends slightly over into Indian Punjab and Helmand region of Afghanistan.

Yet this report suggests that most of IVC is in India and then goes on to say it extends into India all the way to Nepal and Bangladesh. That is crock of *****. If that was the case it ought to be named the Gangetic Valley Civilization. Even the sites found just over in India near the Pakistani border like Kalibangan are nothing but just a hole in the sand. Anybody doubting, please go to Wikipedia and have a look at the famous Indian site - Hole in the Sand !!!#

Then go over to Google Earth or Wikipedia and compare the size and scope of both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro in Pakistan. You will also see how close they are to Ravi and Indus.

I expect lot of these agenda driven reports. 1.1 billion people carry lot of weight and there are going this type of research being sponsered by Indians. Lot of these reports are going to unfortunatly pander to the giant Indian market. Imagine writing a book that credits IVC to Mother India, can you imagine the sales of the book in India? Hindutva fanatics would carry you around like a hero.
 
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harappa is there where i live :devil:

Well you should be proud, your forefathers brought to the world civilization. It is just conjecture that Harappan people spoke a Dravidian language. This is peddled most vociferously by Indian's so they can take a claim on Harappa. Eminent Pakistani archaelogist Prof. Ahmad Hassan Dhani does not go along with the Indian link to IVC.

Dravidian Language?

Q: What do you think about the theory today that the Indus language was a Dravidian language and that there is a connection between the Indus culture and today's South Indian culture?

This is generally believed by those who are now working, particularly my friends like Asko Parpola, Professor Mahadevan, and the Russians Professors who have worked on this subject. They have all been working on the assumption that the language of the Indus people was Dravidian, that the people who build the Indus Civilization are Dravidian. But unfortunately I, as well as my friend Prof. B.B. Lal in India, have not been able to agree with this.

Today the Dravidians are living in South India and we always say if they were the builders of the Indus Civilization and if they migrated from here because of some reason or the other, then something of that civilization they should carry into the south except just the language. But so far we have not been able to find any trace of the Indus Civilization in the whole of South India. It is there is Gujarat, it is there in Malabar, but not in the area where Dravidian is spoken today. Not a single evidence has been found.

Recently when Asko Parpola came about three months ago to Pakistan, he said no Professor, what about Gujarat? Certainly in Gujarat we have got the Indus Civilization, right about to the mouth of the Narmada, right up to the mouth of the Tanti we have got this civilization. There is one more place on the Narmada we have got the Indus civilization, but not south of it. He said that this shows that people have been there. I said even then I will not agree.

2. Cultural Connections

But let me correct myself. There is one particular aspect which does survive, not only in South India, but also in Sri Lanka. This came to my mind when the year before last I was in Sri Lanka at the time of their general election and they had a music performance. In the music performance they were having the dance, and with their drum or dholak, and it at once reminded me of my early life, for I was born in Central India, and I had seen this kind of dance. Not with tabla, tabla is a later comer in our country. It at once reminded me that we have got this dholak in the Indus Valley Civilization. I don't know about the dance, but at least the dholak we know. We have not stringed instruments in Indus Valley Civiliztion. We have got the flute, we have got cymbals, we have got the dholak. Exactly the same musical instrruments are played today in Sri Lanka and South India. So I would like to correct myself: to say that nothing is surviving in South India [is wrong]; this is the only instrument which is surviving there according to me from the Indus Civilization.

Q: What kind of traces would you like to have that would make you think that there is more of a connection between the Dravidians and the ancient Indus?

A: If not the urban, the urban life, at least some pottery, some seal, some material of ivory or any material which we find in the Indus Civilization should be found there rather than in North India. In North India, we know it gradually went later on. But nothing has been found in South India as far as a material object is concerned. As far as the literary object or material is concerned, that we have not been able to know because we haven't been able to read the Indus script.

Q: I was just in Madras. As you know, tigers were very important in the Indus civilization. I noticed that in Madras wherever they are constructing a house, they put a tiger mask in front to ward off the evil spirits. Perhaps this is a trace of an Indus Valley period belief?

A: No, the tiger is also very important in Central India, where I have been living myself, very important. In fact, one of the most important animals in the Indus Civilization is the bull. You visit my museum, I have a painted pottery, not excavated by me, in Islamabad, and all around we have got a bull. Although we do not worship animals in Pakistan, but we do respect the bull because of its utilitarian nature. Bull is used for carriage, in the bullock cart, for plowing, and we have got bull festivals every year. The bull is not the sacred animal in that part of India, it is the cow.

3. An Agglutinative Language

On the other hand, I have been talking to Prof. Parpola that certainly this is an agglutinative language, there is no doubt. That has been accepted by all of us. Dravidian is an agglutinative language. But at the same time Altaic is an agglutinative language, and certainly we know that there was a connection beween Turkmenistan [in Central Asia] and this region. Turkmenistan is a region where Altaic languages are spoken. Even in the pre-Indus period we have a connection. In what we call the Kot Diji period, we have a connection between Indus Civilization and excavations in Turkmenistan. So if we insist on an agglutinative language being used inthe Indus period, why not connect it with Altaic, rather than just with Dravidian? Why not connect it with Sumerian, which is also an agglutinative language? In fact, when I was in Korea, I found that their language is agglutinative, which I did not know before. Just because of agglutinative language, it is not necessary that it is connected with Dravidian. But unfortunately, our history has been so written in the time of the British that earlier we tried to trace out history from the Aryans, and we thought that before the Aryans were Dravidians, that was the idea. So when the Indus Civilization was discovered, it was thought if it is not Aryan, it must be Dravidian, that was the general assumption. But it is not necesssary.

4. Aryans?

Q: Do you think that the Indus Valley people could have been Aryans before the Rgvedic Aryans, another group of Aryans who had come down much earlier and created their own civilization?

A: Whatever we know of the Aryans, from the literary records, in the Rgveda, the earliest book or the first nine books of the Rgveda, do not speak at all of any urban life. They speak of only rural life, villages, and as the Indus Civilization is an urban civilization, therefore to talk of any Aryan association with the urban life seems to me rather unthinkable.

If you read the entire book of the Rgveda and you will find it is totally rural life, not nomadic, they were agricultural no doubt, living in small villages. At the same time, they had no concept of irrigation, they had no use of dams on the rivers; in fact their god Indra is the destroyer of the dams. Hence the type of agriculture and the type of urban life the Indus Civilization people built up was beyond the conception of the Aryans or even the earlier Aryans.

This is very important from our angle. If at all, in the Aryan book, the earliest book whatever we know if today, whatever we have been able to gather from other Aryan languages, not just Sanskrit, from old Iranian, there is nothing of urbanity, nothing of irrigation, nothing called building the dams. All these three are basic factors in the development of the Indus Civilization.

Q: So who would these people have been then? It is becoming mysterious.

Certainly it is very mysterious. So far a large number of scholars have been trying to build on the basis that the language is Dravidian, the people are Dravidian. Unfortunately, I have not been able to agree, nor has my friend Prof. B.B. Lal. Those who have excavated in both Mohenjodaro and Harappa, Lal has excavated in Harappa and I in Mohenjodaro, somehow our concept is entirely different. I know South India very well, I have been living in that part, I have excavated in Mysore and also in other places in South India, of course before 1947. Although I have told you about the music and you have told me about the tiger, it may be possible, it may not be possible, but even then the two are so different that it is after a long, long time that we find urbanization taking place in South India. Tamil literature does not give us any information about a literary form before the first century or at the earliest the second century B.C. We do not have any evidence of damming in the Kaveri river, for example, the most important river in Tamil country, earlier than first or second century B.C.

5. Connections to Hinduism?

Q: You don't think that there are some profound connections with later Hinduism, like bathing in the water, or the yogic figure on some of the seals?

This has no doubt been the intepretation given by Sir John Marshall given in his book [193031] when he wrote and described the religion of the Indus people. But that was because he knew the Hindu religion and society, and on that basis he interpreted, and called it, for example, the prototype of Shiva, and about talked about the yoga and so on. But today we know that there is a very great difference between the two. Certainly yoga continued, but it is possible that it continued even later on [outside Hinduism] for it is simply a question of meditation. For example, when I talk about the meditation derived in Islam today among the Sufis, and when I say it is derived from Buddhism, all the Muslims say no, it is nonsense to say that, but I know it is a derivation. It is quite possible something may have continued, but very little is known.

For example, image worship was known in the Indus Civilization but not known to the Aryans. The Aryans were the conquerors, but the people may have continued that. Similarly, yoga probably was not known to the Aryans in the earlier phases, but later it did penetrate into their society, maybe taken from surviving traditions among the common people. But who were those people, we do not know.

6. Evolution of the Writing

Q: Your excavations of the pre-Indus people, at Rehman Dheri and so forth, what do you think the implications are for understanding the Indus people?

In Rehman Dheri, we do have town planning, we have pottery which shows continuity between Rehman Dheri and the Indus Civilization. With terracotta there is a change, no doubt, but there is some continuity, in designs there is some continuity with what we call the Kot Diji [pre-Indus] and the Indus Civilization. This is no doubt true. But we do not find any seal, we do not find any writing. We have got, no doubt, the forms, engravings, or just scrapings on the pottery. But we do not have a system in the pre-Mohenjo-daro period. The system only evolved in the Indus Civilization. Certainly the shapes are there [earlier]; when you write you have to borrow from the older shapes, that is no doubt true. Even the weight system we do not find earlier. Weights, measure and the writing, the base of the economy is not there earlier, although town planning and architecture is there earlier. Pottery, stoneware, some playthings also continue, but what makes the Indus Civilization is the political economy is not found beforehand. So even today I call it pre-Indus Civilization and Indus Civilization, although many of my friends call it the early Indus Civilization.

We do not know how the writing evolved. I think it was as the trade developed, writing was necessary. Writing was already known in Mesopotamia. So if I am trying to develop writing in my country, it is not necessary that I should use your symbol. I will give you an example. I went to Korea, and there I started reading a Korean book. The moment I saw their alphabet I said what is this alphabet? They said this is an alphabet invented by our King in the 15th century A.D. I said nonsense, I can tell you the whole origin from my country! But what has happened, they have not taken the syllables from my country, but based on that they have evolved their own symbols, perhaps done even better, with verticals and horizontals. Where we have got circles, they don't have circles at all. Wherever there was a curved circle, they made it a vertical. I said I can trace this.

So if writing in the Indus Civilization is derived from Western Asia, it is not necessary that the symbols come from that place. We can use our own symbols. But the basic principle comes from there.

Q: Although now I think the evidence is more that the writing here was an indigenous development.

Could be, it is possible. But indigenous development on the basis of the basic principle [from Western Asia]. Because we do not find development from the pictograph right up to the logo-syllabic writing that we know was used in the Indus Civilization. We do not find the earlier one, which is known to us in Mesopotamia, it is known to us in Egypt. Here we find directly logo-syllabic writing. Hence, they must have known about the logo-syllabic writing then in use in Mesopotamia with whom they had trade connections, and then evolved their own, on the same basis. This is what I am maintaining: that as we do not find from the simple pictograph developing into logo-syllabic in Indus Civilization, but we find it in Mesopotamia, and therefore some wise man, some intellectual here in this region must have known that here is a system of writing, why not evolve our own on the same basis.

Q: It may just be that we haven't excavated enough to find the development.

Quite possible, that is no doubt true, tomorrow we may find something and change our opinion.

He debunks the Dravidian/Hindu claim that you see being plastered all over the cyberspace. For those of you interested read more and make a stand against this Indian plunder of our glorious heritage.

Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents

Ancient Indus Valley Script: Dani Interview Text Only

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahmad Hassan Dani in A Morning with Farah post by zagham - YouTube
 
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1.Statement: "Whatever we know of the Aryans, from the literary records, in the Rgveda, the earliest book or the first nine books of the Rgveda, do not speak at all of any urban life. They speak of only rural life, villages, and as the Indus Civilization is an urban civilization, therefore to talk of any Aryan association with the urban life seems to me rather unthinkable."

Answer: Rigveda 7/3/7, 7/15/14,7/95/1 states about city made of irons.

2.Statement:"If you read the entire book of the Rgveda and you will find it is totally rural life, not nomadic, they were agricultural no doubt, living in small villages. At the same time, they had no concept of irrigation, they had no use of dams on the rivers; in fact their god Indra is the destroyer of the dams. Hence the type of agriculture and the type of urban life the Indus Civilization people built up was beyond the conception of the Aryans or even the earlier Aryans."

Answer: Rigveda1/4/6,1/33/3,4/57/1,10/101/2 clearly states they knew about irrigation quiet well.

Statement:"Similarly, yoga probably was not known to the Aryans in the earlier phases, but later it did penetrate into their society, maybe taken from surviving traditions among the common people. But who were those people, we do not know."

Answer: Entire Upanishada is a fundamental of yoga which is derived from vedas.
P.S: There is mention of gold, silver coins, Military chariots etc too. They had profound knowledge about astronomy which r mentioned in rigveda clearly. Only rural people can not prosper so much as mentioned above.
If this guy states that he knows all about veda, i doubt he read something else.
 
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Scorpionx Prof. Dani knows what he is talking about. He has been involved in the excavation Pakistan's gift to the world, the Indus Valley Civilization. He has published over 30 books, spoke 35 languages including Sanskrit and in addition to being a archaeologist he is also a linguist. So you can put all the doubt you want but end of day all I can say to you is 'shoo go back to your Ganges Civilization' and leave our mighty Indus to us.

The Indus Valley Civilization is pride of Pakistan. Between Pakistan ( Indus Balley ), Egypt ( Nile Valley ), Iraq ( Mesopotamia Valley ) and Greece ( Helles ) we have given the world the gift of civilization.

Pakistan Zinda Bad.

National Fund For Cultural Heritage

CURRICULUM VITAE
 
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