CIA declassified documents Air War 1971 - PAF v IAF

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I have enclosed the CIA report. You don't completely level something if you can make it inoperable. According to the link I gave, Karachi port was completely neutralized. Completely leveling it would have required more time to be spent in extremely hostile enemy environment and would have meant taking losses.

If you read it, one of the sentence is "Several tankers standing off Karachi have been prevented from entering by the India blockade."

The US has a navy big enough to blockade a coastline as long as that of India's. When you blockade a country, you just blockade the major ports. Not the whole coastline.

The memorandum you posted does not state that Karachi port was completely neutralized.

 

[Adam_Khan]

1971 was lost not due to military but due to lack of political interest.
The only thing Bhutto was interested in was becoming the ruler of whatever is left of Pakistan.
He was the bigger traitor as he also arrested and jailed Mujeeb who was in favour of autonomy but not total separation.

Militarily it was not possible to win the war,when you have a territory 1600 miles from mainland with a hostile local population and an overwhelming superior enemy then it's not humanly possible.

With Mujeeb's 6 point agenda a political solution was not possible either.

 

[KhanBaba2]

The memorandum you posted does not state that Karachi port was completely neutralized.

PORT : an area of water where ships stop, including the buildings around it. A harbour is the same thing but smaller and is intended for smaller boats (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/port)


NEUTRALIZED : to stop something from having any effect (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/neutralize)

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

PORT : an area of water where ships stop, including the buildings around it. A harbour is the same thing but smaller and is intended for smaller boats (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/port)


NEUTRALIZED : to stop something from having any effect (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/neutralize)

The memorandum stated that Karachi port was being avoided but their were still other alternatives available.

 

[Prince Kassad]

Performance of Pakistan airforce in 1971? Worst. Around 94k troops surrendered during 1971 and because they didn't trust their own government, there airforce and navy too due to there poor performance in war. Most of the time Pakistan was ruled by army unlike India and the army always tried to make themselves strong so Pakistan also invested in fighter plans and navy too much. They had modern equipment of that time for all the three branches of the army. But the machine didn't fight. It needs man skill and bravery and Pakistan army lacking of that. Despite of all modern aircraft 94k solder surrendered !

 

[KhanBaba2]

The memorandum stated that Karachi port was being avoided but their were still other alternatives available.

Can you list the alternatives. And are you now accepting that Karachi port was neutralized.

 

[karakoram]

Performance of Pakistan airforce in 1971? Worst. Around 94k troops surrendered during 1971 and because they didn't trust their own government, there airforce and navy too due to there poor performance in war. Most of the time Pakistan was ruled by army unlike India and the army always tried to make themselves strong so Pakistan also invested in fighter plans and navy too much. They had modern equipment of that time for all the three branches of the army. But the machine didn't fight. It needs man skill and bravery and Pakistan army lacking of that. Despite of all modern aircraft 94k solder surrendered !

Saffron Chaddi brigade spotted @Mods [emoji16][emoji16]

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Can you list the alternatives. And are you now accepting that Karachi port was neutralized.

Not completely neutralized but definitely restricted. The memorandum itself stated there were alternatives but did not list them.

 

[Cuirassier]

Casualties are est. for Pakistan because we gave no figures. However, 85 officers died from March to 3 December in rebellion and crossborder skirmishes in East Pakistan. Another 120 died from 3 December till Simla Agreement in '72. In comparison, 174 IA officers died from 3 Dec onwards till ceasefire. Including Bangladeshi officers would further inflate this figure. Do the maths.

Aircraft losses to enemy action were 57 for IAF and 24 for PAF - including A2A, AAA & A2G causes. Not including OP aircraft & heli losses.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Performance of Pakistan airforce in 1971? Worst. Around 94k troops surrendered during 1971 and because they didn't trust their own government, there airforce and navy too due to there poor performance in war. Most of the time Pakistan was ruled by army unlike India and the army always tried to make themselves strong so Pakistan also invested in fighter plans and navy too much. They had modern equipment of that time for all the three branches of the army. But the machine didn't fight. It needs man skill and bravery and Pakistan army lacking of that. Despite of all modern aircraft 94k solder surrendered !

If you look at the credible evidence from the OP, it clearly confirms that Pakistan won the air war against india as we shot down significantly more indian military aircraft than the other way round. We inflicted more damage on the indian air force too. However, Pakistan lost the political war.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, the American air force won the air war easily but lost the political war.

 

[Phantom.]

Performance of Pakistan airforce in 1971? Worst. Around 94k troops surrendered during 1971 and because they didn't trust their own government, there airforce and navy too due to there poor performance in war. Most of the time Pakistan was ruled by army unlike India and the army always tried to make themselves strong so Pakistan also invested in fighter plans and navy too much. They had modern equipment of that time for all the three branches of the army. But the machine didn't fight. It needs man skill and bravery and Pakistan army lacking of that. Despite of all modern aircraft 94k solder surrendered !

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Aircraft losses to enemy action were 57 for IAF and 24 for PAF - including A2A, AAA & A2G causes. Not including OP aircraft & heli losses.

That too despite india being more than 7× bigger than us and having the bengalis fighting for them as well.

 

[adelphi]

am wondering what the course of 1971 war would have been if it was not for the Hangor.

Hangor didn't had bigger role to play than Ghazi.

The course of 1971 war would have been different in my opinion

1. Had PNS Ghazi not met the accident off the coast of Visakhapatnam.
2. Had Tejgaon not been neutralised.
3. Had Gen Niazi not decided to surrender despite having 20k to defend Dhaka.

PNS Ghazi had bigger role to play. Had it not met the accident it could had stopped the Naval Blockade of East Pakistan. Indians would have thought twice before bringing in INS Vikrant. Remember it was the same submarine used for Mumbai blockade in 1965.

Despite the heroics had PAF been able to secure Tejgoan for another week, Indian advance would have slowed considerably giving PA air cover and time for UN intervention.

Although East Pakistan was a lost cause, but had Gen Niazi decided to defend Dhaka with all remaining forces. A UN brokered withdrawal of Pakistan Army could have been negotiated thus avoiding surrender. Remember diplomacy takes time.

Despite all odds there is no denying of the fact that Pakistani forces put up an exceptional fight. Truth is India didn't win a war, all it did was to put an end date to a civil war.

 

[Cuirassier]

Hangor didn't had bigger role to play than Ghazi.

The course of 1971 war would have been different in my opinion

1. Had PNS Ghazi not met the accident off the coast of Visakhapatnam.
2. Had Tejgaon not been neutralised.
3. Had Gen Niazi not decided to surrender despite having 20k to defend Dhaka.

PNS Ghazi had bigger role to play. Had it not met the accident it could had stopped the Naval Blockade of East Pakistan. Indians would have thought twice before bringing in INS Vikrant. Remember it was the same submarine used for Mumbai blockade in 1965.

Despite the heroics had PAF been able to secure Tejgoan for another week, Indian advance would have slowed considerably giving PA air cover and time for UN intervention.

Although East Pakistan was a lost cause, but had Gen Niazi decided to defend Dhaka with all remaining forces. A UN brokered withdrawal of Pakistan Army could have been negotiated thus avoiding surrender. Remember diplomacy takes time.

Despite all odds there is no denying of the fact that Pakistani forces put up an exceptional fight. Truth is India didn't win a war, all it did was to put an end date to a civil war.

Niazi didn't have enough regulars in the Dhaka Bowl - most of them were tied up in the fortress towns. Hence the overall commander in the city was MG Jamshed Khan, GOC of the 36 Ad-Hoc Division, who was actually DG EPCAF earlier.

Here is what the Indian Official History says. The 20K story is baloney.

 

[Baghial]

Not sure if this was ever covered.. but here is what the CIA thinks the airwar balance of losses


PAF always seems to get the better of IAF

1965 on top
1971 - seems mixed but given odds very good
2019 - total ownage





View attachment 629527


https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00875R001100030003-0.pdf

WE ARE STILL WINNING AFTER 1947......? WHILE PAKISTAN HAS LOST BANGLADESH, AND KASHMIR,

MY BRAIN CELLS ARE CONFUSED , BY THIS NARRITIVE OF PAK ARMY