China's 28nm DUV lithography machine was delivered in 2021

[F-22Raptor]

The US congress is about to pass a bill to invest $52 billion into getting back into the chip industry. It’s not enough, but it’s a start. TSMC will build a $12 billion plant to make 5nm chips in Phoenix, Arizona. Samsung will invest 17 billion into a chip plant in Texas. Intel is investing $20 billion for a chip plant in Columbus Ohio, and IBM is going to spend $100 billion on a chip plant in Ohio.

Put all these together... and the US is gonna catch-up fast.

A $280 billion package of subsidies and research funding to boost U.S. competitiveness in semiconductors and advanced technology is on track to pass Congress.

What’s in the Semiconductor Chips Bill That Congress Is Set to Approve?

A $280 billion package of subsidies and research funding to boost U.S. competitiveness in semiconductors and advanced technology is on track to pass Congress.

www.wsj.com

Total bill is $280B

 

[Beast]

India would pay the extra cost in the name of national security.

If it was the other way round, would the PLAAF give a contract to supply chips for a massive new datacentre to an Indian company?
Same for large private companies in China no doubt.

Stop being so emotional and when was I a Western cheerleader?

I welcome China's rise as like most of the world want an end to 300 years of Westerners controlling the planet.

More like you are emotional when u give wild prediction for India. And here u are talking about military which separate themselves commercial sector business.

And I am talking very rational when India didn't even ban a single Chinese smartphone companies or Chinese smartphones from their market in the name of security.

 

[UKBengali]

More like you are emotional when u give wild prediction for India. And here u are talking about military which separate themselves commercial sector business.

And I am talking very rational when India didn't even ban a single Chinese smartphone companies or Chinese smartphones from their market in the name of security.

I already said India would most probably allow consumer smartphones to contain Chinese chips.

The problem is in government and medium to large scale private companies that would be very nervous about China supplying the chips for their datacentres and servers.

Please read my full post history on this thread before replying as this is time wasting and filling the thread with repeat information.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

But are they false?

Misleading, because Tacoma is basically Tower semiconductor invested and Glofo ate the loss on Chengdu, not any Chinese company. Blaming the failure of a foreign company on China is intellectually dishonest.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

You tell us. Companies buy each other's products all the time. I have been involved in "competitor's analyses" projects. Each company does it slightly differently in details but the main points are that you buy a sample set:

- Cut a few open and examine them under the scanning electron microscope.
- Draw out the physical structures.
- Attempt to actually build.
- Put a few under normal use stress.
- Put a few under enhanced stress.

YMTC's claim to have its own 3D NAND came up short.

??????????

Someone did a teardown already.

YMTC 128L 3D Xtacking 2.0 TLC NAND | TechInsights

www.techinsights.com

 

[S10]

Me and hundreds of foreign companies doing business in China.

So in other words, bullshit invented by you without source.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Now, of course, Chinese chips are far inferior to those in the West. The output of Shanghai SMIC even is not enough to supply domestic products. We are talking about the future.

The superior "western" chips need to be produced within the sinosphere region.

Dude, there is also the decent sized and growing markets in countries like India. 27 billion US dollars in 2021 and growing at 16% a year.

I do not think there will be much demand in India for Chinese chips in the forseeable future and so Samsung, TSMC and Intel will be supplying them. Also Europe and Japan will stick with US, Taiwanese and Korean fab companies.

Whatever happens China will not be able to dictate to companies like Samsung or TSMC(as long as Taiwan has it's own government).

Both Taiwan and South Korea depend on China's trade surplus.

China is their largest trading partner and largest source of trade surplus.

China alone will master the chips from design to fab to lithography machine including all the required materials into a complete supply chain, whereas the US cannot master everything alone, and it will remain dependent on Taiwan/South Korea/Netherlands.

So the US has some weak spots for not entirely controlling the supply chain, whereas China does not.

 

[Beast]

funny seeing Chinese here put usa and European countries down when most of the critical equipment is imported from these countries.
just because BD can get contracts for stitching underwears and tee shirts, doesn't mean the western countries are unable to mfr them.
China is basically the underwear mfr in some tech industries.

Sourgrape loser. Listen carefully. China can made 7nm chips which Europe and US are struggling despite suffering sanction from US.

I guess this few sentences must be very bitter for you to accept. China has one of the most important supplier chain in chips manufacturing. Even u little India need to buy chips from China.

 

[satyamev]

so when are top end Chinese mobile manufacturing companies likely to discard Qualcomm chips and shift to the super hyper Chinese chips ?

 

[redtom]

America is so stupid. We use electric cars to illustrate just how stupid America's chip strategy is.

A car is about $30,000. Even if the chip inside is worth $3,000, it still requires $27,000 in other parts. We assume that China has 0 chip manufacturing capacity (actually China can manufacture 90% of the chips, even 100% if the performance requirements are reduced, but we assume China's manufacturing capacity is 0 here). The United States wants to destroy China's electric vehicle industry by restricting chips, then the United States must provide the world with an alternative industry. That means the U.S. needs to build an industry that can supply $27,000 of components. How much investment does this require? Unable to calculate.

Starting with basic materials, first of all, the United States needs to establish enough metal smelting industries such as steel, aluminum, copper, and magnesium. America needs millions of workers for this.

Second, these metals need to be processed into parts of various shapes, which requires the establishment of a complete machinery manufacturing industry. This also requires millions of workers.

Then the United States needs to manufacture all the circuit boards, as well as provide a sufficient number of hardware design engineers, software engineers for this purpose. This requires hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates each year.

Then, the U.S. needs enough auto factories to assemble these parts, and hundreds of thousands of workers are the basic requirement.

So is that all there is to it?

Hey, the foundation of it all is enough electricity, transportation, water treatment, chemicals, oil refining. The U.S. needs to invest trillions of dollars first to upgrade U.S. infrastructure. Including expanding the port and rebuilding the shipping industry.

In order to provide these workers, the United States needs to strengthen public education, provide hundreds of billions of dollars in the education budget every year, ensure that children across the United States can go to school and study hard, and limit the income of the financial industry and entertainment industry to prevent children from preferring Be an influencer, not an engineer.

At the same time, the United States must manage community safety issues so that American children can go to school safely.

And all that, just because of the $3,000 chip.

Ok now back to reality, China offers the same chip, but it costs $9000. If in normal market activity, Chinese chips have no value. But today you have to choose between paying $6,000 more, or waiting to make America great again.

Assuming you are a car manufacturer, please tell me what was your decision?

 

[Beast]

so when are top end Chinese mobile manufacturing companies likely to discard Qualcomm chips and shift to the super hyper Chinese chips ?

Lol.. now. We can depend on SMIC. And when is India going to cut off all Chinese smartphone?

 

[gambit]

??????????

Someone did a teardown already.

YMTC 128L 3D Xtacking 2.0 TLC NAND | TechInsights

www.techinsights.com

Yeah...What YMTC did was stacking dies. That is pseudo 3D NAND.

Did Samsung Just Endorse YMTC’s Xtacking? - The Memory Guy Blog

During his December 15 IEDM keynote speech, Samsung Electronics Chairman Kinam Kim really surprised me. He spoke favorably of the approach that YMTC is using to produce 3D NAND flash. This approach, which YMTC named "Xtacking," involves the use of two separate wafers to manufacture a 3D NAND...

thememoryguy.com

This approach, which YMTC named “Xtacking,” involves the use of two separate wafers to manufacture a 3D NAND chip. The brief way to describe it is to say that the memory core is made on one wafer using a 3D NAND process, and the peripheral logic is produced on its own wafer using a CMOS logic process. The two wafers are then bonded together. It’s a more expensive process, but it got YMTC into the market faster, which was that company’s primary goal.​

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Yeah...What YMTC did was stacking dies. That is pseudo 3D NAND.

Did Samsung Just Endorse YMTC’s Xtacking? - The Memory Guy Blog

During his December 15 IEDM keynote speech, Samsung Electronics Chairman Kinam Kim really surprised me. He spoke favorably of the approach that YMTC is using to produce 3D NAND flash. This approach, which YMTC named "Xtacking," involves the use of two separate wafers to manufacture a 3D NAND...

thememoryguy.com

This approach, which YMTC named “Xtacking,” involves the use of two separate wafers to manufacture a 3D NAND chip. The brief way to describe it is to say that the memory core is made on one wafer using a 3D NAND process, and the peripheral logic is produced on its own wafer using a CMOS logic process. The two wafers are then bonded together. It’s a more expensive process, but it got YMTC into the market faster, which was that company’s primary goal.​

uh no, you can't get 128 layer NAND with wafer bonding. I dunno how you are misunderstanding this lmao they aren't wafer bonding 128 layers.

YMTC is wafer bonding a separate control and I/O ASIC to the memory array, as written in your own source:

"The brief way to describe it is to say that the memory core is made on one wafer using a 3D NAND process, and the peripheral logic is produced on its own wafer using a CMOS logic process".

This is instead of CMOS under array which is the way Micron does it, and has advantages in density (as shown in the teardown comparison referenced above)

I don't get how you thought that you can get 3D NAND by wafer bonding every individual NAND layer as you implied. Either that or you tried to mislead.

 

[gambit]

uh no, you can't get 128 layer NAND with wafer bonding. I dunno how you are misunderstanding this lmao they aren't wafer bonding 128 layers.

YMTC is wafer bonding a separate control and I/O ASIC to the memory array, as written in your own source:

"The brief way to describe it is to say that the memory core is made on one wafer using a 3D NAND process, and the peripheral logic is produced on its own wafer using a CMOS logic process".

This is instead of CMOS under array which is the way Micron does it, and has advantages in density (as shown in the teardown comparison referenced above)

I don't get how you thought that you can get 3D NAND by wafer bonding every individual NAND layer as you implied. Either that or you tried to mislead.

uh no, you clearly misunderstood everything. I never said anything about wafer bonding. That was the explanation on how YMTC did it. What I did was quote 'thememoryguy.com' source. That paragraph was NOT my comment. In the end, YMTC did not make a true 3D NAND design but a pseudo version. You can build two single-story houses, stack one atop the other, take it to an architect, tell him you just designed and built a two-story house, and see how hard he laughs. That is YMTC's design.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

uh no, you clearly misunderstood everything. I never said anything about wafer bonding. That was the explanation on how YMTC did it. What I did was quote 'thememoryguy.com' source. That paragraph was NOT my comment. In the end, YMTC did not make a true 3D NAND design but a pseudo version. You can build two single-story houses, stack one atop the other, take it to an architect, tell him you just designed and built a two-story house, and see how hard he laughs. That is YMTC's design.

no, you said they stacked dies. the only way to stack dies with electrical conductivity is wafer bonding or 3D packaging with TSV. so you implied that YMTC's 128 layer NAND was made by wafer bonding or 3D packaging 128 dies.

uh no, you clearly misunderstood everything. I never said anything about wafer bonding. That was the explanation on how YMTC did it. What I did was quote 'thememoryguy.com' source. That paragraph was NOT my comment. In the end, YMTC did not make a true 3D NAND design but a pseudo version. You can build two single-story houses, stack one atop the other, take it to an architect, tell him you just designed and built a two-story house, and see how hard he laughs. That is YMTC's design.

all those memory arrays are stacked dies? each single line is 1 die stack? lmao omg.