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China unveils a new concept of naval warships - semi-submersible arsenal-ship

Benefit is not much, and this is not a new idea, the US Navy have the idea of Arsenal Ship back in 1996, money was awarded to defence contractor, it was designed, at that time, to replace the Iowa Class battleship (Having a hull number of 72 in the designation), the project was scraped by the congress in FY98.

The ship concept is flawed (in 1996) because exactly what you mentioned. The ship would originally to be a stand alone warship, but since lacking of surface infrastructure, that mean the ship cannot designate target on its own, later design make it into a remote controlled warship, either by AEGIS destroyer or by E-2 Hawkeyes or E-3 Sentry, but doing so would have limited the ship's range (which can only function when it was in range of the mothership) Hence the project was scrapped.

The original AS-72 would have the following armament

500 + VLS Launcher
Submersible Capability.
Onboard Fire Control System.
Nuclear Powered

In 2013, US Navy is restarting the program in 2 ways. 1 is using Ohio Class Ballistic Submarine and convert it into an ASM Arsenal Ship with 154 VLS launcher for Tomahawk Missile. The other is using a LPD-17 (San Antonio Class LPD) and put 288 Mk-41 VLS. The first 3 Ohio have been converted into SSGN and the remaining 15 would be doing the same after the new Columbia Class enter the US Navy Service. And the LPD-17 concept is currently being study.
There is a reason why it is partial submerged to retain 2 conning tower pack with AESA to effective acting like a surface ship with sensor to keep situation awareness unlike submarine.

SSBN the most is a cruise missile and ICBM launcher. It lacks the abilities to carry out air defense and command and control for the fleet.
 
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There is a reason why it is partial submerged to retain 2 conning tower pack with AESA to effective acting like a surface ship with sensor to keep situation awareness unlike submarine.

SSBN the most is a cruise missile and ICBM launcher. It lacks the abilities to carry out air defense and command and control for the fleet.

Unless the CG is not to scale, the conning tower size would have make the AESA radar inoperable due to the earth curvature. (The conning tower only at the same height as the hull of the destroyer)

As I said, these are all old design that had been studied by the US Navy for a long time. They have rejected it because it was not able to function individually, and they are neither fully submerge or have a fully functioned arsenal to provide for Anti-Ship, Anti Sub and Anti-Aircraft.

THat is why the US is going with LPD-17 with 288 VLS and Ohio Class conversion
 
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Imagine this ship is able to surface out of nowhere and then raise it's AESA radar, scan and detect many dozens of targets, fire both SAM and SS missiles and then disappear back into the depths of the ocean.

But it cannot. It is a semi submersible. Meaning that it will always be visible on surface radars. Also, a semisubmersible by definition means that it CANNOT "disappear into the depths of the ocean."
 
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Benefit is not much, and this is not a new idea, the US Navy have the idea of Arsenal Ship back in 1996, money was awarded to defence contractor, it was designed, at that time, to replace the Iowa Class battleship (Having a hull number of 72 in the designation), the project was scraped by the congress in FY98.

The ship concept is flawed (in 1996) because exactly what you mentioned. The ship would originally to be a stand alone warship, but since lacking of conning tower, that mean the ship cannot designate target on its own, later design make it into a remote controlled warship, either by AEGIS destroyer or by E-2 Hawkeyes or E-3 Sentry, but doing so would have limited the ship's range (which can only function when it was in range of the mothership) Hence the project was scrapped.

The original AS-72 would have the following armament

500 + VLS Launcher
Submersible Capability.
Onboard Fire Control System.
Nuclear Powered

In 2013, US Navy is restarting the program in 2 ways. 1 is using Ohio Class Ballistic Submarine and convert it into an ASM Arsenal Ship with 154 VLS launcher for Tomahawk Missile. The other is using a LPD-17 (San Antonio Class LPD) and put 288 Mk-41 VLS. The first 3 Ohio have been converted into SSGN and the remaining 15 would be doing the same after the new Columbia Class enter the US Navy Service. And the LPD-17 concept is currently being study.


Isnt LPD-17 too big? means easily detected and targeted by missile/torpedo.
 
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Isnt LPD-17 too big? means easily detected and targeted by missile/torpedo.

They wanted it to be big, as a full spectrum platform.

They needed a big ship that can mount a Large AESA/PESA radar (Last known config is 21 inch diameter SPY-1 Radar twice as big as the SPY radar on AEGIS cruiser and destroyer.) The ship will have a railgun and 360 degree laser defence.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/introducing-ballistic-missile-defense-ship

Introducing the Ballistic Missile Defense Ship

Apr 11, 2014 by Daniel Katz in Ares
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Comments 2


Among the many striking displays at the recent Navy League Sea-Air-Space Exposition was this marvel -- an amphibious warfare ship adapted for Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD), with three times the radar size and missile capacity of current BMD vessels, as well an electromagnetic rail gun that can launch shells to the edge of space.


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The concept from Huntington Ingalls Industries’ (HII) is based on the hull of the LPD-17 San Antonio Class, a component of the three-ship “Amphibious Ready Groups” that stage Marines at forward, sea-based positions. In this incarnation, HII has removed the Marine’s berthing, vehicles, helicopters and landing craft, and installed air defense equipment with greater range and capacity than any ship in the fleet.

d2.jpg



Atop the superstructure is a massive S-band phased array radar, over 21 feet on each side. Compare that to the 12.5 ft. diameter of the SPY-1 radars aboard Ticonderoga Class Cruisers and Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers. For radars, larger size means greater range and better resolution and these arrays have three times the area of those which equip current BMD vessels.

Starting behind the superstructure and continuing along the periphery to the stern is a vertical launch system (VLS) with 288 cells to carry surface to air missiles (SAMs), Tomahawk cruise missiles or Vertical-launch Anti-submarine rockets (VLAs). For comparison, Ticos have 122; later Burkes 96 and earlier Burkes 90. So, that’s triple the average missile load to start, with plenty of room to install more. Plus, the ship is taller than the surface combatants, which means it can hold future missiles of greater length and range.

Forward of the superstructure, you see what looks like a standard five inch gun, the kind one finds on the Ticos and Burkes. But an engineer responsible for this design explains that’s not what it represents. In fact, it’s an electromagnetic rail gun.

At least two other companies at the Expo exhibited their work on rail guns. The contractors speak of equipping surface combatants with 30+ mega joule (MJ) systems sometime in the 2020s. Elevated for maximum range, those barrels can throw shells a hundred miles away. Elevated higher, they can shoot projectiles to the edge of the atmosphere and possibly beyond.

That capability has caught the attention of missile defense thinkers because the shells might be able to intercept incoming warheads from ballistic missiles. With muzzle velocities of Mach 7, shells accelerated by 30MJ weapons would retain enough speed to engage re-entry vehicles as they fall back into the atmosphere, and possibly enough to chase maneuvering re-entry vehicles (MaRVs) trying to dodge them.

They’re also relatively cheap. Part of the difficulty of missile defense is economic. BMD interceptors like SM-3 often cost several times more than the missiles against which they defend. Using rail guns for BMD could flip that ratio, allowing multiple rounds to be economically expended on a single target. Even if a MaRV has greater kinetic energy than each round – which would confer a maneuvering advantage – it would face difficulty avoiding multiple interceptors while maintaining a course that ends at its target. This is particularly true if when the rounds approach they explode into clouds of hypersonic shards, which is what Boeing has in mind:

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Yet another reason rail guns may interest the BMD community is the emerging threat posed by hypersonic glide vehicles (HGVs), such as the one China tested in January. Rather than entering space like normal ballistic missiles, HGVs achieve great speed from their boosters but separate earlier, staying low enough to glide on the air remaining in the stratosphere. Accepting some drag for greater lift, these warheads fly farther than if on a higher trajectory. The benefit is more range and a flight path too low to be intercepted by exo-atmospheric kill vehicles – such as the ones which equip the SM-3 and other mid-course BMD interceptors. The downside is when the warhead nears its target, it has less speed and altitude and is therefore more easily intercepted by low-tier interceptors, including potential rail guns.

While offering greater BMD capability than any other ship operating or planned, the LPD BMD could still provide versatility. The missile cells can launch Tomahawks at land targets. While not currently intended for anti-submarine warfare, acoustic equipment could be added, VLAs can be carried, and the ship can embark helicopters. They could also retain some of their Marine equipment to continue providing amphibious warfare capability.

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HII generated this concept about a year ago, and they’re not the only one’s thinking about it. Noted naval analyst Norman Polmar has also spoken of integrating air defense equipment onto amphibious warfare vessels. The two qualities one needs to improve BMD capability are larger radars and more missile cells; features which call for a bigger ship, like an amphib.

The number of missile cells also harkens back to the Arsenal Ship, a notion which floated around the pages of defense publications in the 1990’s. The idea was to design a stealthy, low-visual signature ship which would just barely extend above the water and hold 500 cells for tomahawks, providing unmatched firepower wherever it travelled. The idea came to partial fruition with the conversion of four Ohio class submarines to SSGNs. In place of 24 Trident nuclear ballistic missiles, these subs now carry 154 conventional Tomahawks and comprise 60% of the Navy’s cruise missile strike force. However, they are set to begin retiring towards the end of the decade. The current solution is to add more Tomahawk launchers to the next version of Virginia Class attack subs. It seems LPD BMD could help here as well, as it is conceptually a cross between an amphib, a Burke and the arsenal ship.

But the big difference in feasibility between the SSGNs and the LPD BMD is cost. The four subs had already been bought, except for the Tomahawk equipment. To field LPD BMD vessels, the US would have to pay for new ships, as well as new radars.

How much would it have to pay? So much nobody has asked for a specific estimate. One can make an educated guess though. The last LPD 17 the US bought cost around $2.1B. The most expensive addition to the basic design would be the radar and associated combat system. Aegis combat systems and their SPY-1 radars cost approximately $222M apiece for FY15. However, an engineer responsible for the LPD BMD design states a better analogy would be the “Cobra Judy,” a shipboard radar the US uses to conduct surveillance on foreign ballistic missile launches. Cobra Judy and its carrying vessel costed ~$1.7B for research and construction of one system. Building multiple ships might reduce the cost, but there would also be research and development to conduct on the new radar, which could increase the total cost of each ship significantly. Throw in the other combat systems and $4B seems like a reasonable ball-park, which would make LPD BMD the third most expensive ship class on record, after the Ford Class Carrier and Ohio Ballistic Missile Submarine Replacement.

At that cost, it’s hard to imagine the US ever buying more than a few, but that may be all the military needs. While no ship can be in two places at once, there are only a couple of theaters that require such great BMD defenses. Like the SSGNs, a handful of LPD BMDs could vastly increase capability in the couple of regions where the threat is greatest. Each LPD BMD accommodates up to 288 interceptors and has the space to carry more. China’s entire ballistic missile force numbers approximately 1100.

Unfortunately, there’s not enough money in the budget right now even for a handful. Too bad. It’s a fascinating concept, but in today’s fiscal environment, that’s probably all it’ll ever be … that, and the world’s coolest key chain:




All photos: Dan Katz
 
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China is developing a warship of naval theorists' dreams

An arsenal ship that can be submerged in water.

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 8 hours ago

arsenal_sub.jpg

ARSENAL SUBMARINE

With distinctive twin conning towers, this arsenal ship can hide under the waves or move on the surface at higher speeds. baoxiuyuan

The Chinese navy is taking arsenal ships in a new direction—as giant submersibles. Post-Cold War naval theorists have long dreamed of recreating the old battleships' power through massive "arsenal ships," or warships carrying hundreds of guided missiles that could fire at land and sea targets. Now it looks like China wants to make that dream a reality.

prof_dong_arsenal_ship_concept.jpg

IN BETWEEN THE TIDES AND THE SEABED
Professor Dong Wen Cai, the late Chinese hydrodynamics expert, shows a sketch of a submersible major combatant, with a flat hull and mid-hull steering fins. CNTV

Stories circulating on Chinese websites—including the Wuhan city government site—mention that Chinese institutions are conducting studies on gigantic submersible arsenal ships.

What's the big deal about an underwater arsenal vessel? Well submerging all or even most of a large warship would reduce its radar and visual signature, as well as protect it against most missile threats.

waveskimmer_computer_model.jpg

CAD WAVESKIMMER
This computer-generated line drawing of the Chinese waveskimmer shows hull-mounted fins that allow for maneuverability and underwater (and semi-submerged) operation. It appears to also be capable of hydroplaning. NSFC

There are two concepts in circulation: one is a high-speed warship with much of its hull submerged but otherwise has a functional superstructure with defense weapons and radar, the other is almost completely submerged arsenal ship with two conning towers. The scale of the designs are significant; either ship would displace roughly about 20,000 tons at full load.

waveskimmer.jpg

SUBMERSIBLE CRUISER
The submersible warship has four stages: submerged, partial exposure of the superstructure, raising the hull to the 'waterline' and as a low draft, and operating as a high-speed hydroplane. NSFC

Reports claim there has been substantial design work and concept proofing for this underwater arsenal ship. Even on his deathbed, leading naval engineer Professor Dong Wei Cai continued to work on a key aspect of the arsenal ship design: the high-speed wave hydroplane.

For stealth operations, the arsenal ship would have most of its hull inherently submerged, with only the bridge and a few other parts of the ship above the waterline, reducing the radar cross section. But when traveling with a high-speed naval taskforce, the arsenal ship will sacrifice stealth to use its flat hull bottom to hydroplane at high speeds, cutting across the waves like a speedboat or amphibious armored vehicle.

arsenal_cvg.jpg

CARRIER GROUP
An arsenal ship can rely on the carrier's airwing and surface warship escorts to protect it against airborne threats, while providing the carrier group hundreds of extra missile launchers holding anything from air-defense rockets to land-attack cruise missiles. baoxiuyuan

The second design is more conventional, it is essentially a giant, conventionally propelled submarine with two conning towers stuffed with snorkels, periscopes, and communications antennae. Given its need to keep up with high-speed surface ships and its lack of high-speed endurance underwater, this arsenal ship design would operate similarly to WWII submarines; the majority of its voyage will take place on the surface, and will submerge only during combat and under attack.

submersible_test.jpg

DEMONSTRATOR
While a 4-meter-long, 1-ton scale model of the high-speed submersible has been undergoing tests and is even shown on state television, no complete picture of the demonstrator has been shown, with only partial photos being released to the public. CCTV 7

Chinese research institutes have been testing sub-models of both arsenal ship configurations since 2011, including open-water tests for the hydroplane arsenal ship and laboratory tests for the arsenal submarine. Unverified rumors on the Chinese internet claim that a full-scale, proof-of-concept is under construction at Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation, to be launched after 2020.

http://www.popsci.com/futuristic-chinese-warship-concept-is-making-waves
 
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This ship(QQSHYGSZZPT) is said to have passed technical reviews organized/conducted by the military high command and is now awaiting the final nod of approval by President Xi. :D:D


Let's go for it! :enjoy:

习主席,加油!

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6. 如何做到攻击对方而不被发现?
水面部分设计的尽量小,采用隐身造型,吸波复合材料,甚至等离子隐身,减小雷达发现距离。
水下部分采用泵推,结合全电,降低噪音,难以被声呐发现。

8. 造这样的舰艇有何意义?
意义在于控制大洋,充当制海舰。
在大洋上,对方航母虽厉害,但是并不能在远距离上发现我。
 
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This ship(QQSHYGSZZPT) is said to have passed technical reviews organized/conducted by the military high command and is now awaiting the final nod of approval by President Xi. :D:D

Did it say which concept it would most likely resemble? a high speed submersible warship or a semi-submersible sub?
 
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Wouldnt this type of vessel be feasible for PN ? It can serve many purposes
 
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Promising concept, if China naval engineer design it right way, both gonna be deadliest arsenal China ever had. This asset will be China's spearhead in conflict. Although Popsci said 'QQSHYGSZZPT' will operate similarly like WW2 subs, I don't think it was the case, beside this wasn't WW2 era. The question was how China will 'bridging' surface combat platform with sub, combined both advantages and push it into max, and minimize disadvantages. That will need extra hard work and adapt new tech. This will be interesting.
 
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Please...:rolleyes:

Just about every other yr someone builds a faster computer. Further, the best indicator is the widespread adoption of a technology and not the esoteric ones that are available only to the few.


Easier ? Twisting my words is not going to help you. Dishonest debating is typical of you guys. I understand radar principles better than ALL of you combined. You are under NO obligations to believe me when I said the US effectively defeated 'stealth'. Repeat -- NO OBLIGATIONS. You clear on that ?

No insults ! If You don't agree, then argue ...
 
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No insults ! If You don't agree, then argue ...
I have.

The title is misleading. The concept is not new. Twenty yrs ago, the USN explored the concept and found it inadequate. Once in a while, the concept rears its head again, and found lacking again.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2015-05/breaking-anti-access-wall
A long series of VLSs encased in a largely submerged hull would be optimal.

http://issues.org/13-1/krepin/
The arsenal ship does not have the imposing profile of traditional battleships or today’s super carriers. In fact, it looks more like a tanker. The ship would be highly automated, with a crew of fewer than 100. For enhanced protection, it would be semi-submersible with a very low profile, and its design would incorporate stealth technologies.
This idea -- that China is trying to pass off as new -- will go nowhere.

Water is a high drag medium. If you take a hull's mass and put the majority of it underwater, every time you do that, it will take you more fuel and less time to get to get to wherever you want. The larger the ship, the more surface area you have. At that shallow depth, you will be making so much noise that you might as well be on the surface. So where is the protection from the enemy sub ? Being semi-submersible, you will have reduced surface radar cross section, but increased sub-surface noise.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part08.htm
At very low speeds there is no observable flow noise. A slight increase in speed changes the flow pattern from laminar to turbulent, and strong flow noise is observed immediately. Further increases in speed step up the intensity of the noise.
An arsenal ship is a fire support vessel. It cannot move slow all the time. It must be able to respond at speed to places where it is needed the most. Being semi-submerged and running at over 10 knots, it will generate enough hull noise that its own sonarman will be blinded.

Read it for yourself...

https://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm
Generally this speed does not exceed 15 knots (7.5 m/s). At this speed the flow noise (so-called hydrodynamic noise) predominates.
A sniper cannot provide ad hoc fire support. He generally stations himself at one location and shoots from there. He kills by detecting movements, therefore, his own movements are dangerous to his security.

A fire support vessel -- like a battleship -- is not that sniper. The ship must be able to respond to threats as fast as it can. Its movements WILL give it away.

From the above source, check this out...

In particular, according to specialists' testimony, improving the tolerance for the size of a tooth gear on the submarine's main turbine gear assembly (GTZA) by 0.1 to 0.01 mm permitted a reduction of the submarine's SL by 3-4 orders of magnitude (30-40 dB).
Improve the tooth gear tolerance from 0.1 to .01 reduces noise by 10dB. A semi-submersible hull running just a few meters below the water surface will generate so much hull flow noise that no machinery tolerances can compensate.

So yes, if China wants to spend billion$$ to build semi-submersible ships that will generate sufficient tracking noise for American subs -- GO FOR IT.
 
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