China–Japan relations: creating a ‘sea of peace, cooperation and friendship’

[Aepsilons]

How can these countries cooperate on biodiversity when the EEZs (i.e. fishing rights) are not clearly delineated? The competition for fish has already destroyed a lot of the biodiversity in the area.

You're absolutely right, Sir. I think that this is the issue that will perpetually be a barrier for complete integration. I mean, even the Koreans (ROK) have regular disputes with the Chinese on this. Tho I think that these delineation agreements can help reduce the possibility of friction. I mean, so far, we don't really see too many Korean - Japanese maritime fishing issues. Most likely due to our fishing agreement with them. The same goes for Japan and Taiwan.

 

[BDforever]

on topic: It is obvious that USA does not want to see peace between these two asian giants, it will decrease USA's domination over Japan.

off topice: @Nihonjin1051 check the song

 

[jkroo]

‘sea of peace, cooperation and friendship’ after Abe steal the Diaoyu (Senkaku) Islands in ECS ?!

Come on, guys ! It's not funny, Abe should eat this word back.

It's 野田佳彦 and 安倍晋三 take it over. That's even more serious. It refect that history issues are really the problems of Japan.


@Nihonjin1051
To be honest, the only thing I can expect is that a break through from CJK FTA. It will benefit our 3 countries.
China has open mind to deal with disputes, but there are pressures come from people/netizens. If you observe Abe's speech/talk/action in the period of recent 10 years, then you will know why Abe is not trusted by Chinese people.

We worship the phylosophy of "知行合一" / "言行一致". Talk too much is useless, what you have done and are doing is more concerned.

Diaoyu Island issues exists decades. Actually, we are not hurry to resolve it in the recent, but we will watch and respond with our actions. It's a dilemma for Japan, in a certain degree, yes for us.

China and USA all know Japan has the ambition to become a normal country which started from early 1980s or even earlier. I think Japan's goal is to be an totally 'independent' country which also means alliances doesn't matter. It's trends and impacts should be observed.

 

[Aepsilons]

This I didn't know about this, but it makes sense when I look at the region further. China and Japan don't harp about fisherman in their waters the same way that South Korea does with China. In fact haven't heard any complaining from Japan about Chinese fisherman. Still, this might be why China is using fisherman instead of its coast guard in the island debate, because it knows Japan is expecting fisherman in its waters and thus isn't as alert to their alternative goals.

Yes. The successful passing of the Japan - China Fishing Agreement in 1997 was one of the products of Tokyo-Beijing Intergovernmental dialogue. In fact, the recent 2008 East China Sea Consensus to joint-develop Chunxiao was another product of the same approach. It has been put on hold due to the maritime row , unfortunately, but as soon as both sides can shelve the disputes, the sooner we can joint-develop Chunxiao Gas Fields.

on topic: It is obvious that USA does not want to see peace between these two asian giants, it will decrease USA's domination over Japan.

Uncle Sammy wants to make sure there's friendship , but nothing in the lines of Japan-China Best Friendhood. America is already our #1 Best Friend.

off topice: @Nihonjin1051 check the song

Where? At the Song thread?

 

[BDforever]

Where? At the Song thread?

yes

 

[Keel]

@Nihonjin1051

Japanese are hypocrites as examplified by yourself .
Nice to at least change your avatar "imperial flag" into "someone ancient"
How can a Japanese like yourself who in your presence on PDF:
1. cherish Imperial Japan
2. support a more aggressive India and Vietnam against China
3. support the "occupy Central" illegal movement in HK
... is asking for peace and co-operation blah blah with China with all the fundamentals unresolved?

Dont argue in the same light as USA because Japan is not USA and more importantly because you have the worst horrifying inhuman historical records in our books!

 

[kyle Chiang]

Creating a ‘sea of peace, cooperation and friendship’ is really needed to China,Korea and Japan.
But Abe's policy on denying the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands disputes,comfort women issues and visiting to the Yasukuni war shrine cannot be accept by China and Korea.If we don't solve these problems,we will never have a peaceful situation to sit down and start deeper cooperation.
Many many times we want to relieve the pain of WWII.Many many times Japanese gov officers visited the Yasukuni and call the war criminals "national hero' ,who killed millions of innocent Chinese and Korean people and let soldier rape thousands of innocent women.
Two Germany President knelt down to apologize for Hitler's massacre.Japan president,Abe,is still proud of that.
That's why we can't skip these problems as Abe's officers relaxed tone to start a new,nice cooperation.

 

[Aepsilons]

It's 野田佳彦 and 安倍晋三 take it over. That's even more serious. It refect that history issues are really the problems of Japan.


@Nihonjin1051
To be honest, the only thing I can expect is that a break through from CJK FTA. It will benefit our 3 countries.
China has open mind to deal with disputes, but there are pressures come from people/netizens. If you observe Abe's speech/talk/action in the period of recent 10 years, then you will know why Abe is not trusted by Chinese people.

We worship the phylosophy of "知行合一" / "言行一致". Talk too much is useless, what you have done and are doing is more concerned.

Diaoyu Island issues exists decades. Actually, we are not hurry to resolve it in the recent, but we will watch and respond with our actions. It's a dilemma for Japan, in a certain degree, yes for us.

China and USA all know Japan has the ambition to become a normal country which started from early 1980s or even earlier. I think Japan's goal is to be an totally 'independent' country which also means alliances doesn't matter. It's trends and impacts should be observed.

@jkroo-sama ,

There is a proverbial saying in Japanese : 七転び八起き and it can be translated as :" If you fall down 7 times, Then stand up 8 times. "

What is the significance of this? The significance of this can be applied to us in a personal self reflection and can also be applied for nation states'. Sure, if you look at the interaction between Tokyo and Beijing since the normalization of ties in 1978 , through the 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship, there have been so many agreements, directives, some have been successful, some have resulted in failure. But that should not limit instances of both sides to find an agreement , or a compromise to an issue. If we lived in say 1972, Japanese and Chinese would have never thought it possible that a treaty of peace and friendship would be passed. If we lived in 1980, it probably would not have been thought possible that there would be a Joint Fishery Agreement between Tokyo and Beijing. Or had we lived in the 1990s, perhaps it wouldn't have been thought of conceivable to have a 2008 Joint Consensus to develop Chunxiao. But the truth of the matter is, it is possible, both sides have to try to keep on working at it. We shouldn't succumb to fatalistic viewpoints, but be always positive.

Japan has come a long way these past 60 some years. And I don't think it will be possible , in our lifetime that is, for there to be complete resolution for the ties between our two countries and our two peoples. But what we can do is to build a culture that will eventually lead to that. Perhaps it will be our grandchildren, or great grand children or even great great grand childrens' generation that will see this. But that's the beauty of the dream and goal.

That said, Let's never stop getting up. 七転び八起き (Nana korobi yaoki) : "If you fall down 7 times, then stand up 8 times !"

 

[jkroo]

@jkroo-sama ,

There is a proverbial saying in Japanese : 七転び八起き and it can be translated as :" If you fall down 7 times, Then stand up 8 times. "

What is the significance of this? The significance of this can be applied to us in a personal self reflection and can also be applied for nation states'. Sure, if you look at the interaction between Tokyo and Beijing since the normalization of ties in 1978 , through the 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship, there have been so many agreements, directives, some have been successful, some have resulted in failure. But that should not limit instances of both sides to find an agreement , or a compromise to an issue. If we lived in say 1972, Japanese and Chinese would have never thought it possible that a treaty of peace and friendship would be passed. If we lived in 1980, it probably would not have been thought possible that there would be a Joint Fishery Agreement between Tokyo and Beijing. Or had we lived in the 1990s, perhaps it wouldn't have been thought of conceivable to have a 2008 Joint Consensus to develop Chunxiao. But the truth of the matter is, it is possible, both sides have to try to keep on working at it. We shouldn't succumb to fatalistic viewpoints, but be always positive.

Japan has come a long way these past 60 some years. And I don't think it will be possible , in our lifetime that is, for there to be complete resolution for the ties between our two countries and our two peoples. But what we can do is to build a culture that will eventually lead to that. Perhaps it will be our grandchildren, or great grand children or even great great grand childrens' generation that will see this. But that's the beauty of the dream and goal.

That said, Let's never stop getting up. 七転び八起き (Nana korobi yaoki) : "If you fall down 7 times, then stand up 8 times !"

Yes, I admit this kind of possibility, but need more wisdom not unreasonableness.

About the saying, seems like 七転八起, there's a Chinese idiom 七高八低 that means the road is not flat. All good to us, just work hard.

You should also admit one thing that Chinese know much more about Japanese than other country's people.

What I mentioned in last post ' trends and impacts should be observed' is not offensive.

Another Chinese ancient wisdom for your information:

以铜为鉴，可正衣冠；以古为鉴，可知兴衰；以人为鉴，可以明得失；以史为鉴,可以知兴替。

 

[Aepsilons]

Yes, I admit this kind of possibility, but need more wisdom not unreasonableness.

Yes. Wisdom, strengthened in patience, and cultivated by prudence.

以铜为鉴，可正衣冠；以古为鉴，可知兴衰；以人为鉴，可以明得失；以史为鉴,可以知兴替。

This is a very good saying, thank you for sharing it @jkroo-sama.

You should also admit one thing that Chinese know much more about Japanese than other country's people.

I will acquiesce to this. Due to the shear volume of historical interaction between Japan and China. The history of Chinese and Japanese relations is over 2 thousand years old.

 

[kawaraj]

Read out this, @LeveragedBuyout
Yomiuri, Asahi editorial chiefs call for a national memorial - SgForums.com
Note that Yomiuri recently strongly object any Yasukuni visit, this is even more "left" than Asahi.

Now I even doubt you have an objective judgement and observance. If so your analysis on economy is in doubt and I won't comment on any of them.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Read out this, @LeveragedBuyout
Yomiuri, Asahi editorial chiefs call for a national memorial - SgForums.com
Note that Yomiuri recently strongly object any Yasukuni visit, this is even more "left" than Asahi.

Now I even doubt you have an objective judgement and observance. If so your analysis on economy is in doubt and I won't comment on any of them.

That's an insipid comment. Left of the far-right doesn't necessarily mean left-wing, it can be center-right (which is where Yomiuri has always stood). First, to take your article, here is the operative section:

Another thing is that I don't think it's right to stop the Yasukuni visits by the prime minister simply because China and South Korea are opposed.

While it was wrong for the Japanese to have killed people in other countries, millions of Japanese also died. A large number of the people memorialized at Yasukuni were themselves victims. I think a distinction has to be made between those who did the killing and those who were killed.

Once that is done, the level of responsibility of the perpetrators should be called into question. Once that historic examination has been clarified and we state where we believe responsibility lies, we can then address the issue of the kind of trouble that we caused China and South Korea.

A soul-searching on our part that will satisfy them will be absolutely necessary. While the Yomiuri will do what it can, I believe this is something that the nation should do at its own initiative, for example, by setting up a historical examination committee in the Diet.

On the other hand, as a representative of the journalism sector, I feel that we have an obligation at our newspaper to clarify our thinking on the issue. We may, of course, have been a little late in starting this.​

Ask any Chinese member here if that sounds conciliatory or left-wing, especially the section I emphasized. I know where I will make my bet. Yomiuri is merely being pragmatic, as it (and Japan) should be. Yasukuni is a source of friction between Japan and its neighbors, so that source of friction should be removed--it's bad for business. There is nothing left-wing in such thinking.

Now, as for the real reasons why Yomiuri is known by all to be a center-right newspaper:

1) It has always advocated for a revision or outright revocation of Article 9
2) It has strong connections to the LDP
3) It advocates for nuclear-power, and tried to suppress news about irregularities surrounding the Fukushima disaster
4) Yomiuri has taken a decidedly vague stance concerning Japanese atrocities committed during the war

Really, I could go on, but there's no point. Either you don't live in Japan, or you do live in Japan and haven't bothered to learn anything about the country, which is far worse.

But go ahead and ask your "Japanese friends" if they agree with you that Yomiuri is left-wing. Make sure you play it off as a joke, so they can laugh with you, instead of at you.

 

[kawaraj]

@LeveragedBuyout

Acturally there's a movement in Japan that intends to seperate those war criminals from general war loss. Yomiuri's position is exactly the majority's position, i.e., (and I have many such comments on board if you notice). War criminals in Yasukuni Shrine was only only guity to those people in Korea, China, SE Asia, they were also the killers of millions of Japanese in WWII. So it's a necesity to seperate them from a single Shrine. Memorials in the same Shrine is huge offensive to those innocent people.

LDP is not necessiry a right wing party per se. Over the decades LDP has led Japan advanced to a more socialism country than today's China. It's some factions of LDP is the rightist party. This twisted political intent is worsend by Japan-US alliance.

If you judge from China or Korea's perspective, they even attack Noda adminstration in Senkaku issue. Does that say Noda or his party is right wing party? Standing inside Japan and you will see who's standing in the left and who's in the right.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@LeveragedBuyout

Acturally there's a movement in Japan that intends to seperate those war criminals from general war loss. Yomiuri's position is exactly the majority's position, i.e., (and I have many such comments on board if you notice). War criminals in Yasukuni Shrine was only only guity to those people in Korea, China, SE Asia, they were also the killers of millions of Japanese in WWII. So it's a necesity to seperate them from a single Shrine. Memorials in the same Shrine is huge offensive to those innocent people.

LDP is not necessiry a right wing party per se. Over the decades LDP has led Japan advanced to a more socialism country than today's China. It's some factions of LDP is the rightist party. This twisted political intent is worsend by Japan-US alliance.

If you judge from China or Korea's perspective, they even attack Noda adminstration in Senkaku issue. Does that say Noda or his party is right wing party? Standing inside Japan and you will see who's standing in the left and who's in the right.

I am staggered by your comment. Are you unaware that Japan has a Communist Party, a Socialist Party, and a mainstream left-of-center party, called the Democratic Party of Japan? Even without knowing the LDP's specific policy positions, the fact that all of these parties stand to the left of it preclude any definition of the LDP as a left-wing party. Of course, once one explores the LDP's positions (pro-trade, pro-business, pro-alliance with the US, pro-defense, pro-privatization, anti-gay marriage, etc.) it's clear that by any First World definition, the LDP is a right-of-center party.

I think you should take a step back and reassess the situation from a more relativistic viewpoint. If a party or newspaper isn't hard-right across the board all the time, that doesn't make it left-wing. Yomiuri is right-of-center. LDP is right-of-center. If they look left-wing to you, we can only conclude that you are a member of the extreme right, not that they are left-wing entities.

 

[kawaraj]

@LeveragedBuyout

You haven't read carefully. "Noda and his party" is DPJ, Democratic Party of Japan. Never heard of Noda? Kan and Hatoyama?

If you judge from China or Korea's perspective, they even attack Noda adminstration in Senkaku issue. Does that say Noda or his party is right wing party? Standing inside Japan and you will see who's standing in the left and who's in the right.