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China is working on a way to extract oxygen from the moon’s surface

Moon has 3 things going for it.

1. Proven capability to act as an industrial base if vacuum smelt metal oxides into metal and pure oxygen scales up.
2. Proven capability for humans to walk on and plants to grow (inside habitats) as proven during the Apollo and Chang'e missions, again just needs scale-up.
3. Proven capability to generate electricity via solar panels for long periods of time in missions like Yutu 2, yet again just needs scale-up.

Note that these are proven things. They do not require any tech that has not been demonstrated even on Earth, these have already occurred.

Fusion power plants do not exist. Orbital bases do not exist. Orbital refueling does not exist. None of that exists. It's not just a matter of scaling up, it is that they have yet to be even invented and tested.

But yes, Mars is terrible.

The moon have its advantages but again its a gravity well and we would require energy to land (no atmosphere) and leave moon. It can be an industrial hub but we would need to invent efficient propulsion technologies to make it feasible. The same goes for orbital stations and fusion reactors. The moon have advantage of being the nearest and yet it wont be easy and we r wasting resources on mars.
 
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Good luck producing the tons of liquid oxygen required for burning the liquid methane fuel that is the fuel being used or planned to be used in rockets for at the next five years. Does the Moon even have methane ? Mars has more methane than the Moon. So of course does Saturn's moon Titan. As long as chemical propulsion for spacecraft exists the Moon is not worth mass-mining for oxygen and such.

BTW this thread should belong in the 'Technology and Science' section.



Far-seeing space companies like SpaceX and Relativity Space are looking at Mars and not the Moon. :) But it is possible that the Moon will have bases like in Antarctica.

I think the Oxygen might be for the ground crew.
 
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The only value of other Planets are escape from the Earth for WW3 loser. Planets are blocked by the Sun, leaving invasion force from Earth to have to wait for launch windows
 
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The moon have its advantages but again its a gravity well and we would require energy to land (no atmosphere) and leave moon. It can be an industrial hub but we would need to invent efficient propulsion technologies to make it feasible. The same goes for orbital stations and fusion reactors. The moon have advantage of being the nearest and yet it wont be easy and we r wasting resources on mars.

exactly. Moon is already hard enough, with proven technologies.

The technologies needed to send even a single rock back from Mars does not exist. Before you can have people go there, you need to demonstrate 8 things:

1. a satellite can orbit it (done)
2. a robot can land on it (done)
3. a satellite can orbit it and return (NOT DONE)
4. a robot can send a single rock back (NOT DONE)
5. a robot can get itself back (NOT DONE)
6. a human can orbit Earth for an equal time as a Mars round trip with no resupply (NOT DONE)
7. a human can orbit Moon for an equal time as a Mars round trip with no resupply (NOT DONE)
8. a human can orbit Mars and get back (NOT DONE)

Each step is exponentially harder than the last, yet we're only at step 2. Mars is decades away at best and possibly permanently. You can't even test these ideas before 2030, much less get a launch window.
 
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exactly. Moon is already hard enough, with proven technologies.

The technologies needed to send even a single rock back from Mars does not exist. Before you can have people go there, you need to demonstrate 8 things:

1. a satellite can orbit it (done)
2. a robot can land on it (done)
3. a satellite can orbit it and return (NOT DONE)
4. a robot can send a single rock back (NOT DONE)
5. a robot can get itself back (NOT DONE)
6. a human can orbit Earth for an equal time as a Mars round trip with no resupply (NOT DONE)
7. a human can orbit Moon for an equal time as a Mars round trip with no resupply (NOT DONE)
8. a human can orbit Mars and get back (NOT DONE)

Each step is exponentially harder than the last, yet we're only at step 2. Mars is decades away at best and possibly permanently. You can't even test these ideas before 2030, much less get a launch window.

You are such a defeatist in context of Mars. BTW about #4 the Russian mission Fobos-Grunt launched a decade ago was supposed to land on Phobos - one of the two moons of Mars - collect some rock or soil samples and return to Earth. But its computer malfunctioned in Earth orbit and the rocket fell back into the Pacific ocean.
 
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You are such a defeatist in context of Mars. BTW about #4 the Russian mission Fobos-Grunt launched a decade ago was supposed to land on Phobos - one of the two moons of Mars - collect some rock or soil samples and return to Earth. But its computer malfunctioned in Earth orbit and the rocket fell back into the Pacific ocean.

It failed. Thus it wasn't reliable. If it failed easily close to Earth then it would've failed even worse on Mars.

There has never been a high powered energy source launched to Mars either.
 
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China is working on a way to extract oxygen from the moon’s surface
  • Experiments were carried out using a small reactor during one of China’s lunar missions
  • Researcher also unveils design of a solar-powered device to release oxygen from lunar soil
Liu Zhen
Liu Zhen
in Beijing
Published: 12:30pm, 20 Oct, 2021
China and Russia plan to build a research station on the moon. Photo: AFP

China and Russia plan to build a research station on the moon. Photo: AFP

Chinese researchers are working on a way to extract oxygen from lunar soil that they hope will be used to sustain humans on the moon in the future.

A team from the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation carried out experiments to do this using a small reactor during a previous lunar mission, which researcher Guo Linli said had “made some progress”. She did not say if it was the Chang’e 5 mission in December.

Guo told a space conference in Shenzhen on Monday that there was a need to find oxygen on the moon “as soon as possible” to support China’s plan to build a research station there.
China and Russia announced in March that they would jointly establish a lunar base, with at least five structures slated for completion by 2035.

Guo on Monday said oxygen could be extracted from lunar soil – which is rich in titanium-iron oxide and ferrous oxide – by heating it to high temperatures of up to 2,500 degrees Celsius (4,500 Fahrenheit). That causes the ions to break down and gaseous oxygen to be released.

She said it was a highly efficient method that could produce up to 30kg of oxygen from 100kg of soil, though the high temperatures were a safety concern. As well as oxygen, the process could also produce other useful materials including high-purity silicon – used for semiconductors – and metals such as iron and titanium.

The researchers plan to eventually put this process to the test using a fully automated device, powered by solar panels. According to a design Guo presented at the conference, the solar panels would unfold after it was deployed and robotic arms would be used to collect and filter the lunar soil and load it into the reactor, where the oxygen and other by-products would be extracted.

China’s Chang’e 5 lunar mission returns to Earth with moon samples

China’s Chang’e 5 lunar mission returns to Earth with moon samples

China’s lunar exploration programme – named after the mythical moon goddess Chang’e – is part of Beijing’s ambition to take the lead in a new international space race. Last week it sent a second crew of astronauts to continue work on its new space station.

Recent lunar missions include landing a rover on the far side of the moon in 2019, and in December bringing rock samples back to Earth for the first time in 44 years, making China the third country to do so after the United States and the Soviet Union.

Next, China wants to land astronauts on the moon by 2030, and to set up the joint scientific base with Russia. The China National Space Administration and its Russian counterpart Roscosmos have invited other countries to join the programme, and preliminary exploration missions are expected to begin this year, with construction to start as early as 2025.

Neither China nor Russia has signed the US-led Artemis Accords, established in October last year to set rules of behaviour on the moon – allowing countries or companies to create “safety zones” while extracting resources – in recognition that all parties will be intent on going to the lunar south pole, where water in the form of ice is known to exist.
I hope no country will colonize the Moon. Let’s it remain a peaceful place. Human is reckless in nature.
One idiot in x country will place weapons on it to target y country for fun.
At the end we are all dead.
 
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It failed. Thus it wasn't reliable. If it failed easily close to Earth then it would've failed even worse on Mars.

It failed partly because of a design mistake in the selection of computer memory. More details on that in this article which is also about Western space-grade processors. It didn't fail because of any flaw in the rocketry system.

But sample return from Mars or its moons is not the way to go when the proper way is for humans, including biologists and geologists, to land on Mars and do the science in a more intelligent manner than the current rovers.

There has never been a high powered energy source launched to Mars either.

I have told you about the NDB nuclear waste battery and about the research on electric eels. Why are you stuck up in negating these ?
 
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It failed partly because of a design mistake in the selection of computer memory. More details on that in this article which is also about Western space-grade processors. It didn't fail because of any flaw in the rocketry system.

But sample return from Mars or its moons is not the way to go when the proper way is for humans, including biologists and geologists, to land on Mars and do the science in a more intelligent manner than the current rovers.



I have told you about the NDB nuclear waste battery and about the research on electric eels. Why are you stuck up in negating these ?

Because NDB batter doesn't exist yet and all energy obtained by electric eels must eventually come from food and oxygen. But electric eels are less efficient energetically than humans, so you might as well say, just enslave people.
 
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Because NDB batter doesn't exist yet and all energy obtained by electric eels must eventually come from food and oxygen. But electric eels are less efficient energetically than humans, so you might as well say, just enslave people.

NDB battery is under development and by the time some of humanity is ready to land on Mars, say by 2030 or even before, the battery will come about. As for electric eels please read post# 4 in the thread I linked.

Edit :
 
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NDB battery is under development and by the time some of humanity is ready to land on Mars, say by 2030 or even before, the battery will come about. As for electric eels please read post# 4 in the thread I linked.

Edit :

do you understand thermodynamics? it seems you have a huge problem with high school level conceptual thermodynamics, so let me break it down for you:

1. regardless of how much voltage an electric eel cell can provide, all of its energy must come from food and oxygen. there are no other energy sources for an animal cell. if you find one, you've won a Nobel Prize in Medicine.

2. all energy of the electric eel cell must include the following at a minimum: a.) energy efficiency loss as the Carnot efficiency 2.) metabolic energy required to stay alive 3.) electricity

3. therefore there is no way for it to be more efficient than a heat engine which does not need to be kept alive.

See this is why it is very hard to educate people like you. You do not understand nor do you care to understand thermodynamics. There are constraints on the way people do things because there are hard physical limits to things.

Let me ask you this: if you believe humans will colonize Mars in 2030, why can't India solve corruption by 2030?

1. No new technologies need to be deployed for India to solve corruption, but new technology needs to be deployed for Mars.
2. No new social structures need to be developed for India to solve corruption, but a Mars society will be unpredented and require laws and rules that have never been applied on Earth.
3. No international cooperation is required for India to solve corruption, but a Mars society will require international collaboration or at least, noninterference.

Since India solving corruption is easier in literally every way than a colony on Mars, I expect India to become Singapore before a single person sets foot on Mars.
 
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do you understand thermodynamics? it seems you have a huge problem with high school level conceptual thermodynamics, so let me break it down for you:

1. regardless of how much voltage an electric eel cell can provide, all of its energy must come from food and oxygen. there are no other energy sources for an animal cell. if you find one, you've won a Nobel Prize in Medicine.

2. all energy of the electric eel cell must include the following at a minimum: a.) energy efficiency loss as the Carnot efficiency 2.) metabolic energy required to stay alive 3.) electricity

3. therefore there is no way for it to be more efficient than a heat engine which does not need to be kept alive.

See this is why it is very hard to educate people like you. You do not understand nor do you care to understand thermodynamics. There are constraints on the way people do things because there are hard physical limits to things.

Mr. Thermodynamics Expert with 40 PhDs, did I say I want to see ten alive captive electric eels connected to wiring ? If you had read that post I referred to I have said this :
I wonder if a rechargeable battery can be made by imitating the electric eel's property. It seems the female EE can live up to 22 years so perhaps an EE-style long-lasting biochemical battery can be devised that consumes some synthetic biological material.

Researchers are working on lamps that imitate the firefly.

Edit : Found this on Wikipedia :
Bionics

Researchers at Yale University and the National Institute of Standards and Technology argue artificial cells could be built that not only replicate the electrical behavior of electric eel cells, but also improve on them. Artificial versions of the eel's electricity-generating cells could be developed as a power source for medical implants and other microscopic devices.
Drink some tea, clear your mind and see what I am talking about. And see if you will as well arrogantly advise those American researchers.

Let me ask you this: if you believe humans will colonize Mars in 2030

You should tell that to SpaceX which is trying to get a government approval for an orbital launch next month of its Starship.

Let me ask you this: if you believe humans will colonize Mars in 2030, why can't India solve corruption by 2030?

1. No new technologies need to be deployed for India to solve corruption, but new technology needs to be deployed for Mars.
2. No new social structures need to be developed for India to solve corruption, but a Mars society will be unpredented and require laws and rules that have never been applied on Earth.
3. No international cooperation is required for India to solve corruption, but a Mars society will require international collaboration or at least, noninterference.

Since India solving corruption is easier in literally every way than a colony on Mars, I expect India to become Singapore before a single person sets foot on Mars.

What is corruption ? What is poverty ? They are but political and socio-economic phenomena.

For India and everywhere else on Earth I have been speaking of the actually Communist political system ( direct democracy - "Withering away of the State" system ) that exist in the Libyan Jamahiriya until the 2011 invasion. That system I describe in this thread. Even Elon Musk wants direct democracy on Mars and I think he can be convinced about the Libyan system which also has been adapted to Venezuela. Further, I have proposed this simple socio-economic system which manages to achieve the Communist desire of eradicating economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ) but retains a money system, though an evolved money system, because despite new technology like Vertical Farming, 3D Printing, lab-grown meat and even now a food-making robot ( which though is expensive ATM ) everything free cannot be achieved ATM. This socio-economic system can also be used on Mars when multiple settlements are established. Go through the thread to begin and I will further link to posts I have made on this topic in other threads.

I don't want India to become Singapore but something much better.
 
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Mr. Thermodynamics Expert with 40 PhDs, did I say I want to see ten alive captive electric eels connected to wiring ? If you had read that post I referred to I have said this :

Drink some tea, clear your mind and see what I am talking about. And see if you will as well arrogantly advise those American researchers.



You should tell that to SpaceX which is trying to get a government approval for an orbital launch next month of its Starship.



What is corruption ? What is poverty ? They are but political and socio-economic phenomena.

For India and everywhere else on Earth I have been speaking of the actually Communist political system ( direct democracy - "Withering away of the State" system ) that exist in the Libyan Jamahiriya until the 2011 invasion. That system I describe in this thread. Even Elon Musk wants direct democracy on Mars and I think he can be convinced about the Libyan system which also has been adapted to Venezuela. Further, I have proposed this simple socio-economic system which manages to achieve the Communist desire of eradicating economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ) but retains a money system, though an evolved money system, because despite new technology like Vertical Farming, 3D Printing, lab-grown meat and even now a food-making robot ( which though is expensive ATM ) everything free cannot be achieved ATM. This socio-economic system can also be used on Mars when multiple settlements are established. Go through the thread to begin and I will further link to posts I have made on this topic in other threads.

I don't want India to become Singapore but something much better.

You don't actually understand how voltage works. Voltage is generated by energy. Voltage is not energy.

Actually El.on M.usk is on record saying that he wants slavery and indentured servitude on Mars.



Can’t afford it? Take out a loan and pay it off by working for SpaceX when you’re there, which is definitely not at all like indentured servitude because... Mars?
 
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You don't actually understand how voltage works. Voltage is generated by energy. Voltage is not energy.

Well, you should explain all that to the ghost of that crocodile which got electrocuted to death by that electric eel in that vid, or to that crocodile which got away with something of a shock. You use "energy" a lot.

Actually El.on M.usk is on record saying that he wants slavery and indentured servitude on Mars.



I agree his idea about socio-economics in context of Mars is idiotic. If he really implements such ideas on Mars he will have a revolt by some sensible persons. Though I hope since he has spoken about the progressive idea of Direct Democracy on Mars he will come to senses about progressive socio-economics too.
 
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Well, you should explain all that to the ghost of that crocodile which got electrocuted to death by that electric eel in that vid, or to that crocodile which got away with something of a shock. You use "energy" a lot.



I agree his idea about socio-economics in contexts of Mars is idiotic. If he really implements such ideas on Mars he will have a revolt from some sensible persons. Though I hope since he has spoken about the progressive idea of Direct Democracy on Mars he will come to senses about progressive socio-economics too.

you know how much voltage can be dangerous to a human? Merely 42 V and 0.1 A. Why do you think 826 V electrocuting an alligator implies there's some impressive amount of energy involved? It doesn't. Animals can die from tiny amounts of voltage, or conversely resist a huge amount of voltage. Hey you know you can generate 3000 V by walking across carpet? Man must be super dangerous to walk across carpet then touch a door if voltage is so dangerous.

I do indeed use energy alot because energy is what we need to do anything including staying alive. Scientists and physical engineers talk energy first and foremost because energy decides what is even possible. Everything else has to work within the confines of energy.
 
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