China is close to Russia, but it has looked to Ukraine for military technology

[Beast]

Turkey did not allow the use of the straits for the passage from the Black Sea to the Aegean, citing the Montreux Convention, as the ship was both an aircraft carrier/warship and had no engine and rudder.

The General Staff and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressed the opinion that the ship should be allowed to pass in order to develop relations with China, and worked on the legal infrastructure.

The biggest concern in the Turkish public was an accident possibility, such an incident could halt traffic in the strait for months. China managed to overcome this problem by giving a letter of guarantee of 1 Billion USD against the possibility of any accident.

At the same time, it was announced that the ship would not be used for military purposes, so as not to violate the Montreux convention; Also, with the promise that a considerable number of tourists would be sent to Turkey, the Turkish government allowed the ship to pass on the condition that it was completely empty.

As a result of the passage made under great security measures, no accidents were experienced and the guarantee amount given by China was not used. After a while, China removed the front company and announced that it would use the ship for military purposes. Varyag, which was promised to be used for tourism purposes during its transportation, was announced by the Chinese Ministry of Defense in 2011, that there was no harm in using as a warship. And the aforementioned Chinese tourists never showed up either.

Trying to present all these events as if Turkey blocked China for 3 years is an extremely unfortunate and deficient perspective. Because Turkey approached China as positively as possible despite all the pressure.

The transfer of rocket / MRL technology are part of this deal.

 

[OIO]

China is close to Russia, but it has looked to Ukraine for military technology​

• Former Soviet republic supplied the PLA Navy’s first aircraft carrier, missile systems and a fighter jet prototype
• ‘Beijing wants technologies, and Ukraine … successfully cooperated in this direction,’ ex-defence official says

China bought an unfinished Soviet warship from Ukraine in 1998. It went into service in 2012 as the country’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning. Photo: AFP

China has become a close ally of Russia, and is seen by some as tacitly backing Moscow’s war in Ukraine. But China also has strong economic and defence ties with Ukraine – it is the eastern European nation’s biggest trading partner, and Kyiv helped Beijing to modernise its military.

In recent decades, the former Soviet republic has sold key military equipment and technology to China, including its first aircraft carrier, missile systems and a fighter jet prototype. According to a former Ukrainian defence official, those transactions helped ease the country’s financial troubles.

It started with the biggest and most significant deal – for an unfinished Soviet aircraft carrier called the Varyag. The vessel was about two-thirds built at a Black Sea shipyard when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

Konstantin Khivrenko was a spokesman for Ukraine’s defence ministry in the early 2000s. Photo: Handout

Konstantin Khivrenko, who served in the Ukrainian defence ministry from 1993 to 2004, said the government had to sell the vessel to help the cash-strapped shipbuilder.

The US$25 million deal for the Varyag was sealed in 1998 by a Hong Kong businessman who had been sent by the Chinese navy – with a cover story that he would turn the vessel into a floating casino in Macau.

According to Khivrenko, now a Ukrainian reserve colonel, the government was convinced at the time that it would be used as a casino and “would not contribute to the militarisation of the region”.

It also provided a much-needed cash injection for Ukraine.

“It would have taken at least US$10 million to US$15 million from the Ukrainian budget to complete [the vessel] – the young country simply did not have this money,” he said.

“By selling the aircraft carrier … Ukraine replenished its budget by US$25 million. This amount was quite large for the country at that period of time,” Khivrenko said, adding that the vessel did not suit Ukraine’s defence needs.

The warship was eventually completed in China, renamed the Liaoning, and became the centrepiece of the PLA Navy.

China’s military modernisation benefited from other Ukrainian deals in the decades to follow – including the T-10K prototype of the Su-33 fighter jet, UGT 25000 naval gas turbine engine technology, and Zubr-class hovercraft.

That technology helped China develop its J-15 carrier-based fighter jets, and the QC 280 gas turbines that power the navy’s most advanced stealth guided-missile destroyers, the Type 055s. Chinese shipbuilders have also developed their own Zubr air-cushion landing craft under the guidance of Ukrainian experts.

But Khivrenko denied reports that the West, especially the US, had tried to intervene and stop the transfer of military technology to China. “No one has ever tied the hands of Ukraine to prevent any military-technical trade deals” with Beijing, he said.

“There has not been a single case of industrial espionage by the Chinese side recorded in Ukraine over the past seven or eight years – that also says a lot,” he added.

“China is no longer interested in buying goods,” Khivrenko said. “Beijing wants technologies, and Ukraine didn’t only understand this, but also successfully cooperated in this direction.”

However, not all of the investments have been successful.

Last year, Kyiv blocked Chinese aerospace firm Skyrizon’s takeover bid for Ukrainian aircraft engine maker Motor Sich, amid US concerns about key technology being transferred. Kyiv said Motor Sich would be nationalised, and Skyrizon is seeking US$4.5 billion in compensation from the Ukrainian government at the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague.

Still, Khivrenko pointed to strong ties in areas such as manufacturing, agriculture, science and culture.

China is now Ukraine’s largest single trading partner, overtaking Russia in 2020 with trade turnover of US$15.4 billion, including US$7.1 billion in Ukrainian exports, according to the State Statistics Service in Kyiv.

But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has put China in a difficult position. Beijing has said it opposes the war but has not condemned Moscow’s aggression. It has said it respects the territorial integrity of both countries and has called for a diplomatic solution.

“I think the Ukrainian government also did not expect Beijing officials to start criticising Moscow heavily,” Khivrenko said. “Beijing has almost never made quick and sharp statements regarding any geopolitical topics.”

However, he said Chinese President Xi Jinping could use his influence with Russian leader Vladimir Putin to make a “historical contribution to the cause of peace”.

“It is important for Xi Jinping to use not only political instruments, but also to get involved in the process of ending the war on a personal level,” he said. “China could become a convenient moderator for Russia in future negotiations to end the war and expand its diplomatic participation in other forms.”

China is close to Russia, but it has looked to Ukraine for military tech

Former Soviet republic supplied the PLA Navy’s first aircraft carrier, missile systems and a fighter jet prototype.

www.scmp.com

China's support for Russia is not against Ukraine, but against NATO.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Why did NATO choose to ignore, remain silent and not speak out when the Joint Force Operation consisting of Ukrainian Army, neo-Nazi AZOV militia and foreign mercenaries were committing genocide against the Russia speaking people in Dombass, Lugansk and Donetsk?

Russia has been sounding this out eversince 2014.

Now we know why rhe rest of the world are ambivalent coming to Ukraine today.

Yes. Stop the war and engage in peace talk but Zalensky refused to honor nor abide by the Minsk II agreement and hence Putin has to act.

So who is wrong and why should the people not involved in the geopolitical conflict judge or takes side.

After the bombing of Chinese embassy at Belgrade, should the Chinese people supports the US or NATO?

 

[Viet]

Why did NATO choose to ignore, remain silent and not speak out when the Joint Force Operation consisting of Ukrainian Army, neo-Nazi AZOV militia and foreign mercenaries were committing genocide against the Russia speaking people in Dombass, Lugansk and Donetsk?

Russia has been sounding this out eversince 2014.

Now we know why rhe rest of the world are ambivalent coming to Ukraine today.

Yes. Stop the war and engage in peace talk but Zalensky refused to honor nor abide by the Minsk II agreement and hence Putin has to act.

So who is wrong and why should the people not involved in the geopolitical conflict judge or takes side.

After the bombing of Chinese embassy at Belgrade, should the Chinese people supports the US or NATO?

Russia army is afraid of Asov regiments? Man, nazi or not, if I am not mistaken, they are less than 1,000 men armed with light infantry weapons.
What a weakling. Putin should send his generals to Siberia gulags.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Russia army is afraid of Asov regiments? Man, nazi or not, if I am not mistaken, they are less than 1,000 men armed with light infantry weapons.
What a weakling. Putin should send his generals to Siberia gulags.

Are you that naive?

Russian Army afraid of the terrorist Nazi group AZOV.

Just show you lack the knowledge on how Russia fight their war.

Vietnamese fought theirs during NAM and in 1979 by fabricating lies about enemy casualties daily. They killed a million GI and shot down 10,000 USAF warplanes

Out of fresh water, food supply and ammunition perhaps former Vietcong can advised the ultra-extremist group like AZOV how to survived their ordeal.

Right now as trained by their sponsors they occupied the civilian apartments using women and babies as their shield.

The Russia general that supposedly were killed by snipers are reappearing.

So Russia has Zombie army as well.

 

[Viet]

Are you that naive?

Russian Army afraid of the terrorist Nazi group AZOV.

Just show you lack the knowledge on how Russia fight their war.

Vietnamese fought theirs during NAM and in 1979 by fabricating lies about enemy casualties daily. They killed a million GI and shot down 10,000 USAF warplanes

Out of fresh water, food supply and ammunition perhaps former Vietcong can advised the ultra-extremist group like AZOV how to survived their ordeal.

Right now as trained by their sponsors they occupied the civilian apartments using women and babies as their shield.

The Russia general that supposedly were killed by snipers are reappearing.

So Russia has Zombie army as well.

You can call nazi as you like. However you can’t ignore their fighting spirit even in hopeless situations.
Russia army can’t take Mariupol is a testament to this.
Respect to the Asov.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

You can call nazi as you like. However you can’t ignore their fighting spirit even in hopeless situations.
Russia army can’t take Mariupol is a testament to this.
Respect to the Asov.

Mariupol is just days or weeks before it falls. The greater part of the city is already under the control of Russia Military and the militia.

The Ukrainian Army, AZOV Nazi Battalion and the foreign mercenaries are now in a very desperate position and have now retreated to a steelwork.
There is NO WAY Russia will let them get away.
They are trying to break out of the tight Russia encirclement.

But the Russia General is very patient and all they has to do is to wait for them to surrender.

Unlike you, many of us knows how to filter the real news frim the fake one.

Unlike what China did in 1979, for instance, having clean up the resistance, PLA took full control, encircled the city of Langson and then flattened it inch by inch by heavy artillery and rockets.
Thr Vietnamese died without even seeing their opponents. So Vietnamese fought the war in spiritual form. That is invincible.
The PLA decimated Vietnam best fighting force, the elite Flying Tiger Regiment.
I laughed whenever the Khmer Krom boasted in PDF how they beat China in 1979.
They really believe in their own fantasy they invented.

IMO Russia choose a more humanitarian approach in order not to cause high civilian casualty and damages.

Their objective is to rescue the people of Donbass, Lugansk and Donetsk from genocide.

Which is the more effective way, Russia or China?

 

[Nan Yang]

That was history back then in 1990.
No more.
No advanced Western nations will ever transfers their technologies to any developing nation esp. China.

The Varyag was just an empty rust bucket and China has to develop the Aircraft Carrier practically from scratch.
Russia then quote an unusually high price for the arresting system while SU-33 was already out of production.

China was only interested to take a close peek at T10K prototype in Ukraine in order to understand how tbe folding wing works and later created their own version based on the analysis of the leaked photographs of both systems.

The giant hovercrafts used in 071 were built in Crimea now a part of Russia.

Under the Soviet Unions, all the important technical blueprints are safely kept in Moscow.

The only exception was Motor Sich which was later purchased by Beijing Skyrizon in 2017 but was illegally nationalised by Ukraine at the behest of the US.

Beijing Skyrizon is suing Motor Sich for the billions they paid for the acquisition.
The Ukrainian refused to allow any of the equipment at Motor Sich to be transfer to China.

But China was not interested in Ukrainian obsolete manufacturing equipment technology but instead her pool of talented milling machinists, engineers.

They were very quickly transport and now living in Chengdu in an Ukrainian village together with their families.

Their contribution I suspects is in the Minshan engines for L-15.

Actually the Varyag jump start China's aircraft carrier program.

For about 25million the Varyag was a gift that fell from heaven for China.

The casino ruse and Ukrainians saying that the engines were destroyed was to fool the US. In fact all the 4 engines were sealed in grease.

Note that each engine alone costs 20 million. The deal also includes the blueprints which filled several trucks and took China about 2 years to computerized.

You could make a movie how China got the Varyag......calling it.

"Under the nose of a superpower"

From Varyag To Liaoning CV-16: The Untold Saga Of A 16-Year Journey​

From Varyag To Liaoning CV-16: The Untold Saga Of A 16-Year Journey

It was in late April 1970 that the PLA Navy (PLAN) had formed a team led by Admiral Liu Huaqing (who later became the PLAN Chief from 1982 till 1988 and was also a CMC member from 1988 to 1997) to explore ways of acquiring aircraft carriers. The Admiral later proposed that China build its own...

defence.pk

 

[Viet]

Mariupol is just days or weeks before it falls. The greater part of the city is already under the control of Russia Military and the militia.

The Ukrainian Army, AZOV Nazi Battalion and the foreign mercenaries are now in a very desperate position and have now retreated to a steelwork.
There is NO WAY Russia will let them get away.
They are trying to break out of the tight Russia encirclement.

But the Russia General is very patient and all they has to do is to wait for them to surrender.

Unlike you, many of us knows how to filter the real news frim the fake one.

Unlike what China did in 1979, for instance, having clean up the resistance, PLA took full control, encircled the city of Langson and then flattened it inch by inch by heavy artillery and rockets.
Thr Vietnamese died without even seeing their opponents. So Vietnamese fought the war in spiritual form. That is invincible.
The PLA decimated Vietnam best fighting force, the elite Flying Tiger Regiment.
I laughed whenever the Khmer Krom boasted in PDF how they beat China in 1979.
They really believe in their own fantasy they invented.

IMO Russia choose a more humanitarian approach in order not to cause high civilian casualty and damages.

Their objective is to rescue the people of Donbass, Lugansk and Donetsk from genocide.

Which is the more effective way, Russia or China?

Pls don’t talk of Vietnam war.
The Asov defends Mariupol till the end they will not surrender. They have the ideology of the Waffen-SS. Good fighters.

 

[Han Patriot]

Actually the Varyag jump start China's aircraft carrier program.

For about 25million the Varyag was a gift that fell from heaven for China.

The casino ruse and Ukrainians saying that the engines were destroyed was to fool the US. In fact all the 4 engines were sealed in grease.

Note that each engine alone costs 20 million. The deal also includes the blueprints which filled several trucks and took China about 2 years to computerized.

You could make a movie how China got the Varyag......calling it.

"Under the nose of a superpower"

From Varyag To Liaoning CV-16: The Untold Saga Of A 16-Year Journey​

From Varyag To Liaoning CV-16: The Untold Saga Of A 16-Year Journey

It was in late April 1970 that the PLA Navy (PLAN) had formed a team led by Admiral Liu Huaqing (who later became the PLAN Chief from 1982 till 1988 and was also a CMC member from 1988 to 1997) to explore ways of acquiring aircraft carriers. The Admiral later proposed that China build its own...

defence.pk

We had patience for 16 years, we started our carrier program from scratch, we had to scavenge know how from a dilapidated junk, now we have a EMALS carrier. We have come a long way, I am so proud of my motherland.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Pls don’t talk of Vietnam war.
The Asov defends Mariupol till the end they will not surrender. They have the ideology of the Waffen-SS. Good fighters.

View attachment 827878

Really.

So you are really that naive. OK.

 

[dBSPL]

The transfer of rocket / MRL technology are part of this deal.

First contract was in 1997 (before Varyag was acquired by the Chinese tourism company), signed for the licensed production of Chinese WS-1A and WS-1B rockets under the name Kasırga.

Then a similar contract was signed with CPMIEC (Chinese Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation) for the Chinese B-611 SRBM. The Chinese B-611 SRBM system included licensed production of the B-611 with over 200 missiles reported in 1998 at a reported US$300 million. If you examine the military agreements for Turkey at that time, it was one of the most astronomical system purchases in its period. With the contractual permission, it was possible for Roketsan to make many modifications to the later blocks on the Chinese SRBM system for local needs. This system has undoubtedly created a fast alternative to the American M-270 system in the inventory and has been an important driving force in the long-term tactic ballistic system studies in Turkey.

At that time, many events took place as a result of the mutual good relations between China and Turkey. Although it was known that Varyag would be used as an aircraft carrier by China, bypassing the Montreux straits regime was one of them.

 

[Viet]

Really.

So you are really that naive. OK.

Your admire for Russia war is regrettable. By the way as you mentioned it, the Vietnam/China war, was more intense more deadly than Ukraine/Russia war in the first weeks. Hardly comparable.
Russia attacks Ukraine with 230,000 men with the separatists included.
China attacked our 1,500 km north front with 600,000 men.
The PLA lost 62,500 men, 50 percent of military hardware in the first two weeks.
After that the war turned into a long war of attrition.

Ukraine m/Russia war will probably turn into a 10y long war.

 

[dBSPL]

Ukraine m/Russia war will probably turn into a 10y long war.

Which is already 8y long war.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Your admire for Russia war is regrettable. By the way as you mentioned it, the Vietnam/China war, was more intense more deadly than Ukraine/Russia war in the first weeks. Hardly comparable.
Russia attacks Ukraine with 230,000 men with the separatists included.
China attacked our 1,500 km north front with 600,000 men.
The PLA lost 62,500 men, 50 percent of military hardware in the first two weeks.
After that the war turned into a long war of attrition.

Ukraine m/Russia war will probably turn into a 10y long war.

A Khmer Krom South Vietnamese propaganda as usual. One that cannot be corroborated just like during NAM and 1979 China punish Vietnam conflict.



Simple logic.
The crying and retreating Vietnamese defenders that left in a hurry without their shoes were busily counting Chinese dead out of the air when the advancing enemy decimated those who were could not ran fast enough.

No transportation available as they ran out of fuel just like what is happening in Ukraine today. Fuel were supplied by China.

No wonder 1 million US GI were counted as dead and that was of course according to VC reliable source.

As the VC radio station were broadcasting, the host proudly announced they just shot down a B-52 killing the pilot in midair by using an AK47 rifle.

The VC listen were elated and jumped up the table.

Such drama were not uncommon and good for laugh but not real news.



Get real.

According to US satellite sources and later confirmed by China, only 80,000 PLA soldiers were involved and by the Chinese side, they were all Guangzi border guards.

China and the US were on friendly term back then. China informed the US that they were going to attack Vietnam a month ahead and yet Vietnamese could not defend those hilly grounds in their advantages.

Can't blame the Vietnamese as they are basically guerilla fighters trained using Mao Tze Dong guerilla warfare tactics of 1930 and not a real army trained for fullscale war.