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China Is a Declining Power—and That’s the Problem

Why do great powers fight great wars? The conventional answer is a story of rising challengers and declining hegemons. An ascendant power, which chafes at the rules of the existing order, gains ground on an established power—the country that made those rules. Tensions multiply; tests of strength ensue. The outcome is a spiral of fear and hostility leading, almost inevitably, to conflict. “The growth of the power of Athens, and the alarm which this inspired in Sparta, made war inevitable,” the ancient historian Thucydides wrote—a truism now invoked, ad nauseum, in explaining the U.S.-China rivalry.
The idea of a Thucydides Trap, popularized by Harvard political scientist Graham Allison, holds that the danger of war will skyrocket as a surging China overtakes a sagging America. Even Chinese President Xi Jinping has endorsed the concept arguing Washington must make room for Beijing. As tensions between the United States and China escalate, the belief that the fundamental cause of friction is a looming “power transition”—the replacement of one hegemon by another—has become canonical.

The only problem with this familiar formula is that it’s wrong.


The Thucydides Trap doesn’t really explain what caused the Peloponnesian War. It doesn’t capture the dynamics that have often driven revisionist powers—whether that is Germany in 1914 or Japan in 1941—to start some of history’s most devastating conflicts. And it doesn’t explain why war is a very real possibility in U.S.-China relations today because it fundamentally misdiagnoses where China now finds itself on its arc of development—the point at which its relative power is peaking and will soon start to fade.

There’s indeed a deadly trap that could ensnare the United States and China. But it’s not the product of a power transition the Thucydidean cliché says it is. It’s best thought of instead as a “peaking power trap.” And if history is any guide, it’s China’s—not the United States’—impending decline that could cause it to snap shut.


There is an entire swath of literature, known as “power transition theory,” which holds that great-power war typically occurs at the intersection of one hegemon’s rise and another’s decline. This is the body of work underpinning the Thucydides Trap, and there is, admittedly, an elemental truth to the idea. The rise of new powers is invariably destabilizing. In the runup to the Peloponnesian War in the 5th century B.C., Athens would not have seemed so menacing to Sparta had it not built a vast empire and become a naval superpower. Washington and Beijing would not be locked in rivalry if China was still poor and weak. Rising powers do expand their influence in ways that threaten reigning powers.
But the calculus that produces war—particularly the calculus that pushes revisionist powers, countries seeking to shake up the existing system, to lash out violently—is more complex. A country whose relative wealth and power are growing will surely become more assertive and ambitious. All things equal, it will seek greater global influence and prestige. But if its position is steadily improving, it should postpone a deadly showdown with the reigning hegemon until it has become even stronger. Such a country should follow the dictum former Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping laid down for a rising China after the Cold War: It should hide its capabilities and bide its time.


Now imagine a different scenario. A dissatisfied state has been building its power and expanding its geopolitical horizons. But then the country peaks, perhaps because its economy slows, perhaps because its own assertiveness provokes a coalition of determined rivals, or perhaps because both of these things happen at once. The future starts to look quite forbidding; a sense of imminent danger starts to replace a feeling of limitless possibility. In these circumstances, a revisionist power may act boldly, even aggressively, to grab what it can before it is too late. The most dangerous trajectory in world politics is a long rise followed by the prospect of a sharp decline.

As we show in our forthcoming book, Danger Zone: The Coming Conflict with China, this scenario is more common than you might think. Historian Donald Kagan showed, for instance, that Athens started acting more belligerently in the years before the Peloponnesian War because it feared adverse shifts in the balance of naval power—in other words, because it was on the verge of losing influence vis-à-vis Sparta. We see the same thing in more recent cases as well.

Over the past 150 years, peaking powers—great powers that had been growing dramatically faster than the world average and then suffered a severe, prolonged slowdown—usually don’t fade away quietly. Rather, they become brash and aggressive. They suppress dissent at home and try to regain economic momentum by creating exclusive spheres of influence abroad. They pour money into their militaries and use force to expand their influence. This behavior commonly provokes great-power tensions. In some cases, it touches disastrous wars.

Read more at -
Post made by an Indian. Pretty much explains everything.

China is rising on the world stage, and hopefully will eclipse USA in Economy GDP Nominal measurement.
 
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as long as Chinese companies are banned from UK and Huawei is one who lost billions from loss of the 5G contract

it was great to see masts come down all over London
I'm happy that you're happy. Bri'ain can go back to using the telecoms technology it was using before Huawei
Telephone-Game.jpg

Oh, wait, the string and the cups are made in China too.
 
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I'm happy that you're happy. Bri'ain can go back to using the telecoms technology it was using before Huawei
Telephone-Game.jpg

Oh, wait, the string and the cups are made in China too.

ha I used them as a kid great fun
 
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BUT China is the first real “Full Spectrum” Peer competitor ever in US history. Think about it, we’ve never faced a challenger like the Chinese, since we were the underdogs/young upstarts challenging the British Empire. Their more pragmatic with their money then the Soviets while building up the military, and a hostile power as compared to Japan which was only just a economic competitor.


Good, it’s about time a competitor came along to awaken the US giant. China will just be another check mark on a long list of nations the US has thrown on the ash heap of history.
 
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Good, it’s about time a competitor came along to awaken the US giant. China will just be another check mark on a long list of nations the US has thrown on the ash heap of history.
What ash heap of history? The US hasn't been around long enough to have a history (all America has in its short life is a criminal record) and the "check marks" can be counted on one hand with fingers to spare.
 
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If China lets the Yuan appreciate, it will be the largest nominal economy by 2025. Its PPP GDP will be around $10 trillion higher than the US by then too.
 
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Why do great powers fight great wars? The conventional answer is a story of rising challengers and declining hegemons. An ascendant power, which chafes at the rules of the existing order, gains ground on an established power—the country that made those rules. Tensions multiply; tests of strength ensue. The outcome is a spiral of fear and hostility leading, almost inevitably, to conflict. “The growth of the power of Athens, and the alarm which this inspired in Sparta, made war inevitable,” the ancient historian Thucydides wrote—a truism now invoked, ad nauseum, in explaining the U.S.-China rivalry.
The idea of a Thucydides Trap, popularized by Harvard political scientist Graham Allison, holds that the danger of war will skyrocket as a surging China overtakes a sagging America. Even Chinese President Xi Jinping has endorsed the concept arguing Washington must make room for Beijing. As tensions between the United States and China escalate, the belief that the fundamental cause of friction is a looming “power transition”—the replacement of one hegemon by another—has become canonical.

The only problem with this familiar formula is that it’s wrong.


The Thucydides Trap doesn’t really explain what caused the Peloponnesian War. It doesn’t capture the dynamics that have often driven revisionist powers—whether that is Germany in 1914 or Japan in 1941—to start some of history’s most devastating conflicts. And it doesn’t explain why war is a very real possibility in U.S.-China relations today because it fundamentally misdiagnoses where China now finds itself on its arc of development—the point at which its relative power is peaking and will soon start to fade.

There’s indeed a deadly trap that could ensnare the United States and China. But it’s not the product of a power transition the Thucydidean cliché says it is. It’s best thought of instead as a “peaking power trap.” And if history is any guide, it’s China’s—not the United States’—impending decline that could cause it to snap shut.


There is an entire swath of literature, known as “power transition theory,” which holds that great-power war typically occurs at the intersection of one hegemon’s rise and another’s decline. This is the body of work underpinning the Thucydides Trap, and there is, admittedly, an elemental truth to the idea. The rise of new powers is invariably destabilizing. In the runup to the Peloponnesian War in the 5th century B.C., Athens would not have seemed so menacing to Sparta had it not built a vast empire and become a naval superpower. Washington and Beijing would not be locked in rivalry if China was still poor and weak. Rising powers do expand their influence in ways that threaten reigning powers.
But the calculus that produces war—particularly the calculus that pushes revisionist powers, countries seeking to shake up the existing system, to lash out violently—is more complex. A country whose relative wealth and power are growing will surely become more assertive and ambitious. All things equal, it will seek greater global influence and prestige. But if its position is steadily improving, it should postpone a deadly showdown with the reigning hegemon until it has become even stronger. Such a country should follow the dictum former Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping laid down for a rising China after the Cold War: It should hide its capabilities and bide its time.


Now imagine a different scenario. A dissatisfied state has been building its power and expanding its geopolitical horizons. But then the country peaks, perhaps because its economy slows, perhaps because its own assertiveness provokes a coalition of determined rivals, or perhaps because both of these things happen at once. The future starts to look quite forbidding; a sense of imminent danger starts to replace a feeling of limitless possibility. In these circumstances, a revisionist power may act boldly, even aggressively, to grab what it can before it is too late. The most dangerous trajectory in world politics is a long rise followed by the prospect of a sharp decline.

As we show in our forthcoming book, Danger Zone: The Coming Conflict with China, this scenario is more common than you might think. Historian Donald Kagan showed, for instance, that Athens started acting more belligerently in the years before the Peloponnesian War because it feared adverse shifts in the balance of naval power—in other words, because it was on the verge of losing influence vis-à-vis Sparta. We see the same thing in more recent cases as well.

Over the past 150 years, peaking powers—great powers that had been growing dramatically faster than the world average and then suffered a severe, prolonged slowdown—usually don’t fade away quietly. Rather, they become brash and aggressive. They suppress dissent at home and try to regain economic momentum by creating exclusive spheres of influence abroad. They pour money into their militaries and use force to expand their influence. This behavior commonly provokes great-power tensions. In some cases, it touches disastrous wars.

Read more at -

Power transition theory has a history of almost 60-70 years. It has certain analytical advantages but also been harshly criticized due to problems in its somewhat deterministic approach. It, basically, only looks at favorable historical data, ignoring equally plentiful data of lack of major wars even during a transition. Furthermore, it ignores individual conditions specific to each case. Usually, major theorists stay away from it. It is a useful tool, but, in the end, it is a theory at best. Hence, falsifiable.

To me, the greatest handicap of PTT is that it takes for granted that, when the overtaking approaches, it should automatically be the rising power/challenger which is dissatisfied. Hence, theory goes, dissatisfied challenger challenges the satisfied dominant power. Why dominant power is satisfied by default? Theory says because the system is the product of the hegemon, hence hegemon benefits from it. No reason to be dissatisfied.

Now, in China-US major power relationship one can see a fundamental challenge to this proposition (satisfied-dissatisfied dyads). As it stands, even thought present global system is a product of US (and allied powers to some degree), it is the US which shows every sign of dissatisfaction. They complain about regimes they helped create: WTO, WHO, Nuclear disarmament etc. It is China, actually, which looks satisfied to a greater degree.

So, we have a proposition that goes against the very core of PTT: The dominant power (US) is dissatisfied whereas challenging/rising power (China) is satisfied.

Under PTT, then, if eventually a great power war happens, it should be due to the dissatisfied power. Today, it is the US.
 
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People trying to make a fast buck with the principle, "Tell them what they want to hear."

There are supposedly educated people in the US who belong to this exact group and will only selectively listen to their own version of "truth".

I (personally) know nutcases who will not tune into anything except the "Fox Channel" on their smart TVs. Life is very cosy and rosy that way.

They will keep believing that China is going down the tubes, on a TV that is 100% made in China!
 
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Good, it’s about time a competitor came along to awaken the US giant. China will just be another check mark on a long list of nations the US has thrown on the ash heap of history.

Perhaps, but it will come down to which country can adapt better as the decades wear on. 400 years of representative democracy, and nearly 250 of which as an independent country that is continuously evolving, means we have a good shot at outlasting the Chinese, but they won’t collapse if they can help it. I doubt a Gorbachev will come along and flip the switch.
 
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The empire of lies is utterly desperate right now. The empire of lies need a war right now before China’s nuclear arsenal has reached parity and delivery systems are so advanced that it will be suicidal to have a war against China. It is like a boxer in the 10th round losing on points and knowing he needs to go for the knockout right now if he wants to win the fight.

The longer time goes on, the grand geopolitical chess board shifts dramatically in China’s favour. Empire of lies knows this more than anyone, that’s why the desperation in all areas all of a sudden to stop China’s rise. Empire of lies has had their ‘Oh shit’ moment.
 
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BUT China is the first real “Full Spectrum” Peer competitor ever in US history. Think about it, we’ve never faced a challenger like the Chinese, since we were the underdogs/young upstarts challenging the British Empire. Their more pragmatic with their money then the Soviets while building up the military, and a hostile power as compared to Japan which was only just a economic competitor.
agreed, but China is also the least globally integrated power in terms of institutes, narrative, and acceptability across the globe. Its strength has been economy, and is way behind USSR or Japan or even Nazi Germany in global alliance .. There has never been a superpower in history without global /regional alliance and ability to project power .. China has to prove the history wrong
 
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agreed, but China is also the least globally integrated power in terms of institutes, narrative, and acceptability across the globe. Its strength has been economy, and is way behind USSR or Japan or even Nazi Germany in global alliance .. There has never been a superpower in history without global /regional alliance and ability to project power .. China has to prove the history wrong

True, but those kinds of relationships can sour if not from a position of strength. China waited too long, IMHO by a decade or so, to start BRI and the money it invested into unproductive infrastructure at home should have spend abroad, while the west was distracted and more open to investments.

Only thing now is for them to try to catch up ASAP, but as the reversal of the flip in recognition from Taiwan to China back to Taiwan in Central America has show, the US is singularly focused on countering China’s moves.

China may have to give even more enticing offers to these nations to woo them, now that their maybe another “suitor” ready to counteroffer.

Having said all that China is already very well established in many supply chains and pivoting away from that will cost companies a lot of money which China knows they will be reluctant to do. It has only just begun an effort at soft power so it’s still possible they may surprise the world on that front as well. They may pull back on some of their policies which are getting them bad press internationally, and look to make their system appear more international; an efficient technology enabled system that speeds up human development and economic growth. Look at their recent inroads in Central America, right on the doorstep of the US.
 
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Power transition theory has a history of almost 60-70 years. It has certain analytical advantages but also been harshly criticized due to problems in its somewhat deterministic approach. It, basically, only looks at favorable historical data, ignoring equally plentiful data of lack of major wars even during a transition
Countries don't become superpowers fighting wars against evenly matched opponents. It's either shooting pigmys one sided conquest, or a close third party takes advantage of wannabe superpowers destroying each other to subplant both at zero cost to itself.
The US at one time was also terrified of the Soviets and Japanese “rise.”
US was afraid of Japanese for completely different reason I just listed above:

USA and USSR nuking each other = your grandsons speaking Japanese, and watching crazy Japanese cartoons
 
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