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China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles

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China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles

SINGAPORE -- China can send a man into space and a rocket into lunar orbit but, paradoxically, its defense industry cannot build a top-end aircraft engine. Or an engine sophisticated enough to power advanced surface ships and armored vehicles.

But this broad statement requires a caveat: China's defense industry can indeed design, develop and produce propulsion systems for relatively simple military platforms — certain transport aircraft, patrol boats, some types of main battle tanks and armored personnel carriers. But high-performance combat aircraft, destroyers and similarly demanding platforms are another matter.

Only submarines appear an exception to this general rule. Most new types are fitted with locally developed propulsion systems, although the technology's origins are not known.

This technical shortcoming was most recently highlighted in a report in the Russian newspaper Vedomosti stating that Beijing last month bought 123 AL-31FN turbofan engines from Russian manufacturer NPO Saturn. These cost over US$500 million. The order follows earlier tranches that since 2001 have totaled 930 engines.

The AL-31FN currently powers China's J-10 multirole fighter and J-11A/B air superiority fighter, as well as the J-15 carrier-based fighter which is under development. Russia's Klimov RD-93 engine is fitted on the Chinese JF-17 multirole fighter and FC-1 attack fighter. A French engine drives the Z-11 helicopter and an American one powers the civilian ARJ-21 jet airliner.

Indicative of this trend elsewhere in the People's Liberation Army, the navy's Song-class submarine has MTU diesel engines from Germany, while the Luhai-class destroyer has Ukrainian gas turbines and German diesels. Among ground forces, the ZBL-09 8x8 infantry combat vehicle is fitted with a Deutz engine from Germany and the Type 99 main battle tank has a locally produced power plant derived from German technology.

Just a handful of companies worldwide have truly mastered the engineering challenge of developing high-performance engines, and China's dependence on foreign suppliers is deeply problematic for Beijing. But a new report concludes that change may be imminent.

Gabe Collins and associate professor Andrew Erickson, in a comprehensive study published recently by specialist website China SignPost, focus on military jet power plants.

“The Chinese aerospace industry is driven by four strategic imperatives as it pursues the ability to manufacture large volumes of high-performance aircraft engines — parts dependence avoidance, Russian supply unwillingness, aircraft sales autonomy and poor Russian after-sales service,” the authors state.

They say that quality control remains spotty, resulting in problems with reliability, and key weak points include turbine blade production and process standardization. Beyond these issues, “(China) appears to remain limited with respect to components and systems design, integration and management ... and to making logistical and operational plans at the force level based on reliable estimates thereof.”


Progress is uneven but, the authors add, China's dominant aerospace conglomerate — the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), with 10 subsidiaries and 400,000 employees — has now placed a high priority on engine development and plans over the next five years to invest 10 billion yuan (US$1.5 billion) in jet engine research and development.

This is particularly significant because Russia looks to be an increasingly reluctant supplier, partly because of production pressures due to heightened domestic requirements, but also because of China's rising international sales competitiveness. Such reticence could seriously impede Beijing's push to upgrade its air force with J-10, J-11, J-15 and J-20 fighters — the last of these a fifth-generation fighter under development, with Moscow seemingly hesitant to provide the 117S engine it needs for sufficient power.

“We estimate that, based on current knowledge and assuming no major setbacks or loss of mission focus, China will need two to three years before it achieves comprehensive capabilities commensurate with the aggregate inputs in the jet engine sector and five to 10 years before it is able to consistently mass produce top-notch turbofan engines for a fifth-generation type fighter,” said the study.

“If China's engine-makers can attain the technical capability level that United States manufacturers had 20 years ago, it will be able to power its fourth-generation and fifth-generation aircraft with domestically made engines. These developments would be vital in cementing China as a formidable regional air power and deserve close attention from policymakers.”

Collins and Erickson characterize China's inability to domestically mass produce advanced jet engines of consistent quality as an enduring Achilles' heel in its military aerospace sector. And there are important strategic and commercial implications inherent in overcoming this problem.

Presumably, if more priorities arise, doing so through AVIC's new initiative may also provide lessons that could be applied to ground and naval platforms.

China defense industry faces homemade engine troubles - The China Post
 
Making Engines are not easy as to how it looks to be, Needs complicated testing , Metallurgy, and High end R&D in the metallic sciences. Containing heat by researching and amalgamating different metals forming a considerable alloy is an even bigger challenge which countries like China and India are yet to master in. Technology and Production facility we might have, but high end products, alloys , administration certainly I doubt.
 
We should have invested more money in this.

Ideally, we should be able to make everything we need by ourselves.
 
We should have invested more money in this.

Ideally we should be able to make everything we need by ourselves.

To be frank, China already has a very stable industry. It still can make all the high end products but not in its own line, you have to derive it from else where which is seriously weakening your R&D efforts. Pouring money is not really a factor, attitude is.
 
To be frank, China already has a very stable industry. It still can make all the high end products but not in its own line, you have to derive it from else where which is seriously weakening your R&D efforts. Pouring money is not really a factor, attitude is.

What method do you suggest, and what other countries at a comparable level of development to China, have had better success with such alternative methods?
 
What method do you suggest, and what other countries at a comparable level of development to China, have had better success with such alternative methods?

The problem is, there is no other country which follows the same for an exact comparison. Investing in R&D and Investing in Manufacturing are two two things, one is Long term investment and the other is for the short term provided the R&D is not escalated. To the present situation and the way China is heading to, it seems quiet a formidable power to weaken the western market especially when it comes to defense as the R&D investment is low and so is the product price. The question is "For how long"?
 
Making Engines are not easy as to how it looks to be, Needs complicated testing , Metallurgy, and High end R&D in the metallic sciences. Containing heat by researching and amalgamating different metals forming a considerable alloy is an even bigger challenge which countries like China and India are yet to master in. Technology and Production facility we might have, but high end products, alloys , administration certainly I doubt.
Spot on! India has been trying hard for designing an engine for the Tejas for the past three decades. Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri", was expected to replace the F404 on all production aircraft. However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by technical difficulties.

Development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production LSP aircraft and two naval prototypes. GE will now supply the latest GE F414 engines. (The initial batch will be supplied by GE and the remainder will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement).
 
Big deal,Every nation has a learning curve or has to jump the hoops for the development of controlled technology.Nobody has ever built a fully operational missile on their first try much less a jet engine.Move along folks,nothing to read here.
 
Spot on! India has been trying hard for designing an engine for the Tejas for the past three decades. Led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri", was expected to replace the F404 on all production aircraft. However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by technical difficulties.

Development snags with the Kaveri resulted in the 2003 decision to procure the uprated F404-GE-IN20 engine for the eight pre-production LSP aircraft and two naval prototypes. GE will now supply the latest GE F414 engines. (The initial batch will be supplied by GE and the remainder will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement).

We develop Sukhoi 30 MKi engines under Full TOT 100% in India, but Kaveri its a complete mess. Thats the difference between Inveting in R&D and Investing in Production. But the day you master in R&D you are truly benefited with what you gained by developing Su 30 engines.

Many even today think when India can manufacture su 30 Engines here, why are we struggling with kaveri? its very simple, you have a blue chart for that engine and that engine alone, but you dont have a platform to build upon... Kaveri is just a platform to build upon the experience and technology gained from Su 30 Engines. It just leaves the option of development open
 
Another rehashed bs, enough to explain it over again and again.

Come on, its not here for no reason, dont like it, dont debate it.. Simple.. No one is Insulting or Speaking negative about your country or achievements, all we are debating is what went wrong and how it can be rectified. If you can contribute well and good, otherwise its not going to make any big difference either.
 
conclude the article in one sentence, China cant produce turbofan engine.

i know u spark, i know what u want to say, u say it by highlighting those sentences...

about j-20 fitted with what engine, no one knows, so i wont border u, please have a party spark, believe what u want to believe, and i request u dont border the Chinese poster here, let them also believe what they want to believe...

and dont try to convince them or me with posting such "informative" article... with speculations of how many years China need to achieve blah blah blah... if it referring specific turbofan engine production procedure, point out what exactly China lack in engine production chain, the article worth something. well, its not, the author sounds like a typical Russian or Indian "expert".
 
about j-20 fitted with what engine, no one knows, so i wont border u, please have a party spark, believe what u want to believe, and i request u dont border the Chinese poster here believe what they want to believe...

only troll and fake chinese like you didn't know what engine fit in J20

Another rehashed bs, enough to explain it over again and again.

don't waste time on clowns,let the thread sunk itself ,last year this guy also that claimed JXX and AMCA were at the same stage
 
The article is full of errors. First the purchase of AL-31F is needed for over 200 J-10A in service at the moment, as the earliest batch will require engine replacement soon. WS-10 has been certified and used on J-11B since 2009, but has yet to receive certification for J-10A. Second of all, China had developed more than half a dozen jet engines previously, both the WS and WP series. The thing that makes WS-10 unique and difficult is that it is first engine to have a greater than 8:1 thrust ratio.
 
We develop Sukhoi 30 MKi engines under Full TOT 100% in India, but Kaveri its a complete mess. Thats the difference between Inveting in R&D and Investing in Production. But the day you master in R&D you are truly benefited with what you gained by developing Su 30 engines.

only assembly work using imported kits. remember, india have to send engines to russia for repairs and overhaul. you don't need to that if you really have 100% TOT.
 

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