Changing times: Ijtihad and other questions Muslims must revisit

[Mujahid Memon]

Just a minor correction bahi.


Islam will survive.

Bad Islamic practices will die out.

what do you mean ??

Islam is not a "perfect" religion if that's what you want us to believe.

People's interpretation and/or representation of Islam may not be perfect, but 'ISLAM IS PERFECT', and its our firm belief as a Muslim, and we are Muslims because 'Islam is the Perfect Religion' --

 

[FaujHistorian]

what do you mean ??
...--

Insane traditions like head chopping, hand cutting will die out.

Only spiritual Islam will survive. The one the pure and core of Islam.

 

[Mujahid Memon]

Insane traditions like head chopping, hand cutting will die out.

Only spiritual Islam will survive. The one the pure and core of Islam.

If something is Islamic, its not bad and if something is bad, its not Islamic.
If someone has 'wrong' interpreted a 'right' Islamic principle, then you may not call it as 'bad Islamic practices', by saying such things you're accepting and/or showing others that there's something wrong with Islam.

 

[Norwegian]

If it is in Koran, then I think it was the ruling establishments of later period who suppressed this right of Muslims for open thinking given by the founding father.

THAT is exactly what the problem is. See you are a non-Muslim and you understood the problem but so many observing Muslims on this board fail to understand this core problem of ijtihad or reform in Islam. Islam must reform or die. Any other way is the way of the fundamentalists, terrorists, extremists because they have closed doors of ijtihad on them

 

[Mujahid Memon]

So who is "right"? Everyone likes to think they are the ones defining what the center and correct position should be.

Like George Carlin said, "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

Thats the problem. Everyone is right in their own mindset. There are infinite ways to be wrong, but there is only one way to be right.

In engineering and applied mathematics, particularly in instrumentation, there is a technique called 'Kalman Filtering', in which a number of error prone sensors are combined. All sensors generate the error in random direction, but the correct reading is identical, and what the Kalman filter does is to reject the random signals and to take only the common reading which is the best estimate of measured data.

Similarly all people have right and wrong thoughts. And as I said above, there is only one way to be right. Dont try to find what is wrong in others, but try to find the 'common right' in others and compare it with yourself, the wrongs in you and others will automatically be distinguished.

And for the Quran / Hadith interpretation, there are many many things to be considered, the time of revelation of any Ayat, the cause/reason of revelation (Shaan-e-Nazool), the surroundings of that Ayat etc etc. For example some radicalist take a part of any Quranic verse which translates to 'kill kuffar', but they dont see these parameters as when the verse was revealed, why it was revealed, what's in the surrounding of the verse etc.

 

[Black Mamba1]

If something is Islamic, its not bad and if something is bad, its not Islamic.
If someone has 'wrong' interpreted a 'right' Islamic principle, then you may not call it as 'bad Islamic practices', by saying such things you're accepting and/or showing others that there's something wrong with Islam.

Issue is many perceived bad things today were not bad 1400 years ago. Now there is a decision making point for you-

whether you will accept some tradition which was good 1400 years ago but not considered good today. Or you will accept todays best practice and forget about 1400 years old practice.

I do not see current conflicts (both internal and external) Islamic world is facing as a religious conflict at all, it is actually a conflict of civilisation of twenty first century with a civilisation of 1400 years old.. It is not the fact that all features of current civilisation is good. What I hope that after this conflict is over a new civilisation will emerge by synthesis of both which will be better than both and beneficial for human race.

 

[VCheng]

Thats the problem. Everyone is right in their own mindset. There are infinite ways to be wrong, but there is only one way to be right.

In engineering and applied mathematics, particularly in instrumentation, there is a technique called 'Kalman Filtering', in which a number of error prone sensors are combined. All sensors generate the error in random direction, but the correct reading is identical, and what the Kalman filter does is to reject the random signals and to take only the common reading which is the best estimate of measured data.

Similarly all people have right and wrong thoughts. And as I said above, there is only one way to be right. Dont try to find what is wrong in others, but try to find the 'common right' in others and compare it with yourself, the wrongs in you and others will automatically be distinguished.

And for the Quran / Hadith interpretation, there are many many things to be considered, the time of revelation of any Ayat, the cause/reason of revelation (Shaan-e-Nazool), the surroundings of that Ayat etc etc. For example some radicalist take a part of any Quranic verse which translates to 'kill kuffar', but they dont see these parameters as when the verse was revealed, why it was revealed, what's in the surrounding of the verse etc.

Good post, but unfortunately based off the faulty premise that "there is only one way to be right".

 

[Norwegian]

For example some radicalist take a part of any Quranic verse which translates to 'kill kuffar', but they dont see these parameters as when the verse was revealed, why it was revealed, what's in the surrounding of the verse etc.

Exactly! Ijtihad is all about reaching consensus among the Ummah about different aspects of life and Islamic teachings. When our Aslaf did ijtihad, we were more united as an Ummah and we had broader consensus on things like jihad, adultery and so on and when we stopped doing it, we splitted ourselves into radical sects who have no consensus at all on anything Islamic!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Exactly! Ijtihad is all about reaching consensus among the Ummah about different aspects of life and Islamic teachings. When our Aslaf did ijtihad, we were more united as an Ummah and we had broader consensus on things like jihad, adultery and so on and when we stopped doing it, we splitted ourselves into radical sects who have no consensus at all on anything Islamic!

Well said.

Unfortunately your post assumes that Ijtihad is possible.

If Ijtihad is a precondition in 2014 to start reformation, then this process cannot start.

your or mine Aslaf did not do any Ijtihad.

We in India Pak simply accepted theories from Arab lands.

Theories put forward mainly by Imam Hanifa.

since Imam Hanifa, the stuff is sadly written in stone. Thus cannot be changed.

Not that I am opposed to change. Not at all.

I am just presenting reality here.

 

[Norwegian]

Well said.

Unfortunately your post assumes that Ijtihad is possible.

If Ijtihad is a precondition in 2014 to start reformation, then this process cannot start.

your or mine Aslaf did not do any Ijtihad.

We in India Pak simply accepted theories from Arab lands.

Theories put forward mainly by Imam Hanifa.

since Imam Hanifa, the stuff is sadly written in stone. Thus cannot be changed.

Not that I am opposed to change. Not at all.

I am just presenting reality here.

Of course it can change. We have currently very few schools of Islamic thought or Madhab, thank god, despite unlimited supply of Islamic sects and organisations, many of them who support terrorism and extremism. If some good Imam or learned scholar start his own Madhhab based on all the good from known historical Islamic Madhabs, things can change. We don't need to wait until the appearance of Messiah or Mahdi for the final showdown!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Of course it can change. We have currently very few schools of Islamic thought or Madhab, thank god, despite unlimited supply of Islamic sects and organisations, many of them who support terrorism and extremism. If some good Imam or learned scholar start his own Madhhab based on all the good from known historical Islamic Madhabs, things can change. We don't need to wait until the appearance of Messiah or Mahdi for the final showdown!
View attachment 145234

Easy to say this while being in the safety of a secular/christian country.

Do so in KSA, Iran

And the next day your and mine head will be on top of poles.

Mind you. Just the heads.


p.s. I know I am committing two sins. I am opposing you in this thread and I am pointing out errors in PTI. I am now dead on PDF. Arent't I

 

[Norwegian]

p.s. I know I am committing two sins. I am opposing you in this thread and I am pointing out errors in PTI. I am now dead on PDF. Arent't I

PTI is a political party. If you oppose me there its fine as everyone is free to criticize a political party. But do criticize radical and unmoving state of the Muslim world. Look at eastern nations of Japan, Korea, China and Singapore. They were contacted by the superior Western civilization much later than the Middle East, yet they reformed and now they are competing with the west in science, technology, trade, sports, industry and all other sectors of civilisation. While the Muslim world regressed and started to show its unmatched skills in terrorism, extremism, bigotry, illiteracy and idiocracy.

 

[Dubious]

OP is not bashing Islam in anyway. Every religion and its followers deserve respect, but sorry I don't see how OP's post could be offensive to anyone.

I am not even talking about OP but who OP attracts!

 

[Dubious]

Ok, the munafiq thing. Well, let's just say we respect each other as far as possible, and there is a mix that goes pretty well in India. Only recently the hardliners are creating problems, otherwise things are cool.

Which side of the coin are you viewing?

For example it's normal for Hindus to attend iftar parties and even keep fast during Ramzan, just like it's not very unusual for Muslims to celebrate Ganpathy festival etc. No problems there.

To celebrate as in just enjoy the festive is fine but to celebrate as in sit in pooja and all is not ok...Again which part of the coin are you looking at?

As for fasting ...it is also in Hinduism so of course Hindus wont mind it....its not something new for Hindus to fast....My colleague was telling me he fasts twice a week ....

But Ganpathy is not in Islam so why try to dip it in? See the difference?

What is not in Hinduism like full dress covering called abaya...Hindus dont take it well and ignorantly call it burqa...However headscarf where some Hindu and even Sikh women cover their heads (in similar forms not exactly but covering heads) in temples or near elders....We do it all the time coz our GOD is not only in the temple but EVERYWHERE.....another way to see it is we are ordered to do so and we abide that is Islam total submission to will of GOD...not mix and choose...

It is VERY UNFAIR to accept "from Islam" what is already part of you "CULTURE" (in red) and claim to be tolerant but never ACCEPT part of Islam that is not part of your culture and COMPLAIN we do not accept Hinduism...which is not part of Islamic culture....Do you see the hypocrisy?

How can you point a finger at one and not the other? When in reality you guys dont accept Islam AT ALL....

Basically Hindus dont tolerate us and also why soo many favored partioning...

The purity seekers are the ONLY ones who make trouble. The others don't.
Maybe you should apply this purity test on Hindus....tell me 1 thing which is only in Islam (not part of your culture) and Hindus accepted it...

Even the RSS itself declares itself a culturally Hindu but religiously secular organization.

Secular is not a religion and Hindu is not a culture rather it is the other way round....Culturally Secular and Religiously Hindu maybe to attract more people this was coined...Because you can not be secular and religious in the same sentence coz secular means SEPARATION or nothing to do with religion!

Dharmics are more particular about NOT following a particular 'pure' form of religion. I am not saying we are superior or our Hindus/Muslims etc are better than yours in any way. Just making my observation thats all. In the end, we have our policies and you have yours.

Ok...

 

[jatt+gutts]

Which side of the coin are you viewing?



To celebrate as in just enjoy the festive is fine but to celebrate as in sit in pooja and all is not ok...Again which part of the coin are you looking at?

As for fasting ...it is also in Hinduism so of course Hindus wont mind it....its not something new for Hindus to fast....My colleague was telling me he fasts twice a week ....

But Ganpathy is not in Islam so why try to dip it in? See the difference?

What is not in Hinduism like full dress covering called abaya...Hindus dont take it well and ignorantly call it burqa...However headscarf where some Hindu and even Sikh women cover their heads (in similar forms not exactly but covering heads) in temples or near elders....We do it all the time coz our GOD is not only in the temple but EVERYWHERE.....another way to see it is we are ordered to do so and we abide that is Islam total submission to will of GOD...not mix and choose...

It is VERY UNFAIR to accept "from Islam" what is already part of you "CULTURE" (in red) and claim to be tolerant but never ACCEPT part of Islam that is not part of your culture and COMPLAIN we do not accept Hinduism...which is not part of Islamic culture....Do you see the hypocrisy?...

bibi ji .. see here you are openly bashing other religion although subly but have no patience to hear criticism of islam.. bibi ji to be very honest with you when you call islam a true religion even that is insulting to us.. because for us our religions are true religion.. next time you want others to respect your religion be respecting to other religions.. if hindus follow idol worhip so what it is to you. what if it turned out after death ganesha was a true god and what you follow is false... can you prove to me allah don't want idol worhip.. can you show me some recording of allah.. I am Sikh and we don't worship idols doesn't mean we keep on calling others religions false.
How can you point a finger at one and not the other? When in reality you guys dont accept Islam AT ALL....

thats why it was banned


dude four were allowed after he had married all his wives, after which Allah, forbade him either to divorce any of them, and neither he could marry more, the slave girl you are talking about is most probably Hazrat Maria (R.A) he set her free, she converted to Islam and then married her, she was most probably a princess.........
now in case of Muslims, you are allowed to have 4 wives, but are told by Allah (SWT) o marry only one as it will be better for you, and also that you should not marry young widow girls, instead support them and adopt them, get it?
and yes just like you said Islam is the true religion, and as for ISIS, Pakistan will be safe from these sh** people, and why dont you go join them?

al right I believe your logic.. he disallowed more than four after allah said him so.. no problem its very logical. I cant ask about it...

I can argue on this point a lot more but then infractions will be coming.